It might be time to give some very serious though to bringing short track stock car racing into the modern age . The average weekly stock car show consists of numerous classes where the entire field of cars is thirty years old . Not going to attract many new fans that way , and the old fans are tired of the same old show . The lack of technology is killing local stock car tracks .
New Rule . Only bodies 10 years old or newer can used . Too hard to build new body style cars ? No , not really . Too expensive ? No , not really . But it gives the fans a much better show . At least a fresh show .
New Rule . Mini-Stocks will be 10 years old or newer American or Import are legal . Factory computers and fuel injection allowed . Track owners and promotors still think these cars can’t be regulated . Fact is the average teenager or shop mechanic can work on , test , and modify any of these cars easily . Every other racing series on earth uses these cars and regulates the computers and Fuel injection just fine Again , a fresh show and a chance to bring younger racers in . Right now they are racing , but they are going drag racing or sports car racing where these types of cars have been raced for years .
New Rule . To save money for the racers , tow your car behind a pick-up with an enclosed trailer , get a 50 pound weight break over full size transporters . Open flat trailer behind a pick-up gets 100 pound weight break . This rule would do wonders for the racers bank accounts , and would enable the new fans these rules will bring to the track to see the backstretch .
So because I dont want my crap stolen out the back of my truck at the motel, i would be subject to a 50 lb penalty over open trailer races? Bull crap.
[QUOTE=AJ14;15745]
New Rule . Mini-Stocks will be 10 years old or newer American or Import are legal . Factory computers and fuel injection allowed . Track owners and promotors still think these cars can’t be regulated . Fact is the average teenager or shop mechanic can work on , test , and modify any of these cars easily . [/QUOTE]
Try again. The equipment to properly diagnose ECU driveability problems cost more than the car. The average mechanic can NOT work on Fuel injected cars. Especially not OBDII or 1994 and newer cars. You could shadetree the old OBDI cars, not modern stuff.
1994 and up cars , American and Import , are being diagnosed and repaired at independent garages all over America every day . The equipment to do so is expensive , though certainly not out of reach for the average racer . In fact , a number of average racers across the country already have the equipment thats needed . The newest generation computers and injection units are only mysteries to those of us who didn’t grow up in the computer age .
My point is , the average weekly show has to be improved by upgrading the cars , which will result in more participants , and more fans . That means including the cars that should have been included many years ago . Yes there are other problems like constant caution flags that take far too many laps to resolve . But the cars ARE the show , and they need to be brought into the modern age . Difficult ? Maybe . But the alternative is already evident every time you look up into the stands and see 200 people instead of 1000 . The rest are staying home to watch bright shiny new race cars on tv. Or going to the drag strip to watch or race cars that they can relate to .
Locking valubles up has always been a problem , but from a cost versus utility analysis , there have to be better alternatives that the transporters .
By the way , my intent was not to say big transporters aren’t needed . They certainly have their place , and are a necessity for some . But i , like every other person involved in short track racing constantly hear complaints about how stock car racing doesn’t pay enough to allow racers to make any money . And often those racers are saying it from the leather seats in the air conditioned lounge of their transporter that is hauling one lower class race car , and that hauler rarely goes more than a few hundred miles per weekend .
ONe of the things
One of the things that makes Local Short Track racing great is the ability to have weekend mechanics actually be able to work on their own cars… With the advent of the newer technologies, comes the advent of newer technologies to work on them… I know a whole bunch of short track drivers that can barely afford to work on the “old” cars as you put it… Let alone purchase several thousand dollars worth of test equipment just to figure out what is going on with their race car for the weekend… Just what do you consider the “average” racer to be that they can afford all of this equipment…
One must remember that this isn’t NASCAR and we all don’t have millions of sponsorship money to play with… If you take a look at the rules at the tracks, you will find that the cars that you want to see at the race tracks are already included. It is just that alot of the racers don’t want to use them… You have to remember that price does come in to effect…
One of the draws to have racing as a hobby is the ability to do things with the cars… The feeling of success when you take something that you built, compete and/or win with it…
I can remember when the only trailers that were seen at a race track were open trailers… If I have the ability to afford an enclosed trailer and want to use it, don’t dictate to me that I am going to be penalized for my luck and success… Like Oval mentioned, theft is one of those things that suck, but it is something that happens… I remember when I used to travel to race and I can remember trying to lock everything up good enough not to be stolen while using an open trailer is tough… Then I moved up to an enclosed trailer. It was great, no theft, no ruined tools because of the weather, etc.
Have a great day all…
AJ, first I have to ask, how old are you and how long have you been around racing?
I agree that foreign cars should be allowed to be used for minis, mostly because they are plentiful. However SAFETY is a huge concern for these as well. I dont care what car and driver says, on the race track its completely different.
I dont agree with using fuel injected cars. Main reason again is safety, why do you think the cup guys use mechanical fuel pumps and all the rule books say “NO ELECTRIC FUEL PUMPS”
Those large haulers are exessive but you cant penalize the cars for having one, that is a bit retarded. Look how many drivers have them and are not even competitive.
Thanks Ed… I was going to ask, but I thought I might offend someone by asking his/her age… ROFLMAO…
Well i’ve been involved in racing for over 20 years as a driver , mechanic , and owner in stock cars , some road racing , and drag racing .
Fuel injection is not any problem . Fuel injected factory style cars are used every weekend in SCCA Road racing , SPEED Challenge road racing , and every dragstrip in the nation , not to mention autocross and hillclimb . Every form of racing has figured out how to safely race and regulate newer cars , except for NASCAR , but when was the last time they got anything right .
The equipment needed to tune a computerized , fuel injected car is readily available and for hundreds of dollars , not thousands , an average mechanic could work on the newer generation cars . In fact , almost everyone who is currently a mechanic is very well versed in computers and fuel injection . Thats how they’ve been making their living everyday . Aotomotive repair shops don’t get many 4 cyls. with carbs coming through the doors . Again , anyone under the age of thirty who works on cars for a living can easily race an injected computerized car . And the rest of us can learn , the same way we learned to race Holley equiped cars . And we need to start now , before more fans walk away and before more new racers are driven to other types of racing because the established racers refuse to do anything different . And as for the cost, how expensive is it going to be to have to park your race car for good , or tow a hundred miles to find a race track still open ?
Overall, I am fine with having the option for FWD, injected cars in my class. However, here is a real-life horror story for your consideration.
Some friends of mine have been stuck for months trying to get a computerized car to run. These guys are veteran racers who have fielded about a million racecars over the years, but this one has them sitting on the sidelines. It is nothing like the old days of running power to a coil and firing it up.
Old AIN"T bad
I guess by ya’lls standards I’m old, but when I started in this race bussiness some of us towed with a tow bar behind what ever we could get to run enough to get to the track. I can GAURENTEEE we had as much or more fun than you guys have today. We shoved the tool box in the back window of the race car and never worried about theif. prolly cause they figured they would get ther hed busted… This is just my opinion, but I think weekly racing has gotten out of hand. The Mod Minis I see are just, for the most part 4 cyl late models. that used to be a starter class. The thrill of seeing something you created compete and maybe win is the most gratifying feeling you can have. I personaly would like to see the old '32, '34, and '36’s come back. I love it when the daara series comes to town, It is nostaliga, or how ever you smell that word. Bob…
PS: After I hit post I thought of something else, 1 old guy I remember used to bring his race car to the track in a dump truck. He’d back it down in the ditch and back it out. In fact I think it was Golden Isles speedway that had a dirt pile in the middle of the pits with boards on one side to make it flat. I ask what that was for and they told me it was to unload cars that were loaded in the back of a truck. I guess they are behind times. LOL!
AJ,
You are thinking of ways to improve racing and i commend you on that.
Here are a few tidbits to add to this tread.
1 Racing hasen’t changed just the cost to do it, technology, specialty parts, (racing parts).there is no more (stock) cars.
2 10 year old and newer will not bring new fans other than younger folks expecting to see drifting or some other crap people are now trying to call motorsports.
3 10 year old and newer cars have NO chassis, just what they (favor) as a unibody. So all these cars would have to be tube chassis with these bodies hung on them.
4 Fuel injection wouldn’t be too bad just expensive, i have heard of component used in indy and others that shut fuel pumps off when the engine stops. (only hearsay).
5 There are still an abundance of bomber type cars in the 80’s that shallow pocket racers can use (sat nite shade tree guys) who shouldn’t be forced to buy high tech cars to run lower classes.
6 And finally, go back from the beginning of racing ALL the way up to the 80’s and notice the race cars (stock cars) if not new for that model year were only a couple of years old…cuz the racers could afford it.
In 1951 my dad was racing a 49 coupe.
In 1961 he was driving a 1960 couple he bought from a used car lot.
In the 1980’s there was guys running bomber type classes with late 70’s model cars. Some guys still used the older model but you get the idea.
If anyone wants racing to thrive again go back to when the most expensive class car cost about $8000 complete build.
Stop the (must buy) track tires, track fuel, pay entry fee with little to no payout through the field.
Very true , there are plenty of 80s cars around . In fact there are still a surprising number of 70s cars around . But the crowds are simply tired of the same old cars the’ve seen for thirty years . And the young guys who might think they are coming to a drifting show are exactly the ones we want to come to the track . Then they can go home and build a Honda or Toyota or Chevy Cobalt and come back . Thats how new stock car racers are made .
While i realize that it would be an investment , therte are 90s Grand Prixs , Tauruses , LeSabres , even Cadillacs , and certainly Mopars out there , ex-rental cars or blown up V-6s with raged interiors that can be had real cheap . Now are you gonna tell me that the racers can’t figure out a way to use the drivetrain , suspension , and frame they already have and fit a late model body onto it . It requires buying another body , but its’ more than worth it to save racing . And it doesn’t have to be done overnight . The tracks need to make late model bodies mandatory , and give everyone 6 months to comply . I know the track owners and promoters say that fuel prices are to blame for the fans not coming out , but that doesn’t stop them from coming to Crash O Ramas . The difference is , they have become bored with the same old show and the same old cars .
Thanks for not geting offended by me asking your age or how long you have been around racing. I didnt want discuss anything about racing with someone who thinks their 4 door civic with a wing, k & n filter and the exhaust cut off is a racecar, fast or cool.
Alot of your road race cars you mentioned have a very expensive fuel injection system. I am sure you can make them safe but how much $$$ is it going to take.
Personally I think if you can make safe racecars and competitive racecars out of anything then I am all for it. More cars will bring more fans. More fans the more money. More money brings stability for the track owners.
[QUOTE=Edm;15802
Alot of your road race cars you mentioned have a very expensive fuel injection system. I am sure you can make them safe but how much $$$ is it going to take.
[/QUOTE]
Honestly? No money. Computer controlled vehicles have a system where the fuel pump times out after 3 seconds if the car is not running.
The problem comes in, that most cars have pressurized fuel systems. IF there is no pressure in the system, you set an evap code, and the computer goes into safe mode. Therefore the car does not run properly. I can scan and attach several hundred repair bills from my fathers auto repair shop that total in excess of $1,500 just to diagnose computer controlled driveability issues. Thats not to mention what parts cost. Just call around and check on what ECMs cost for latemodel cars. Coil packs for distributorless ignition? Better dig deep of you want to feasibly race the same car for a long time.
I can promise you the average shop can not diagnose most issues. Every town usually has one shop that is up to date, the rest do shocks and brakes. My father has more work than he can do because he is the only game in town willing to spend the gobs of money for diagnostic equipment.
Call your local tool distributors and ask what a Snao-on Modis or Solus costs.
How bout the Matco Determinator? Got 10 grand to spend? Then there is the software that MAY cover the car you have. Import? Dig deeper. How bout once you pull the code, do you know what to do with it? May show an o2 code, but that doesnt mean that the o2 sensor is bad. Mab have a mad MAP or MAF. Could be a bad injector. I have a shop full of hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of diagnostic equipment to use, but not everyone does. Therefore I do not think that we should go to fuel injectied for a means of race technology.
ANY electric fuel pump can be made safe by a oil pressure ground switch. When there is oil pressure the ground circuit is completed, therefore there is fuel pressure. Engine shuts off, no oil pressure, no ground, therefore no fuel delivery.
I understand that everyone isn’t going to be able to work on their own cars . But then many racers don’t do all of the work on their own cars now . Thats where race engine builders and chassis builders come in . Same could be done for the new generation cars . Find the shop in town that knows how to work on the engine electronics . I don’t know how much work an electronic injected race car would require . Maybe a lot , though most of the newer small cars seem pretty bullet proof . I think it is very much worth while to find out . Its all in the hands of the tracks and their rules makers . We’ve got to get the younger people involved .
And late model bodies for stock type classes is the answer for crowd appeal . It will take other measures to save stock car racing , but these ideas would sure be a good start .
bullet proof
Let’s see bullet proof… my better half, has had problems with her newer car in the last six months. let’s see main computer went out. will turn over but no fire… puter had too tell me that $900.00 plus dollars to repair. two months later, same problem, nope puter diagnosed a sensor in the door was not letting the main car puter to work. $700.00 move ahead one week, brand new main car puter went out again… will turn over but not fire. $800.00 this time…
thank God for warranty and $65000 diagnostic computer.
still think average racer can afford those electronic repairs for a strictly stock.
by the way how old are you anyway…
have a great day all
We talked a little bit about this the other night. The most popular cars for production-based classes, are becoming more and more extinct. It’s hard to find a Monte Carlo or Camaro to turn into a Street Stock, and the same for Pinto’s and Mustangs for Mini-Stocks. The IMCA, which is the most successful sanction in the country with thousands of Modifieds (all with common rules), have recognized the problem finding acceptable front-clips to be used on these cars. There just aren’t enough of them left. They are looking into the feasability of using tube-framed cars, strictly because the supply is almost gone. Same principal here.
In NY, the feeder classes are usually tube-framed, store bought chassis. The difference is, that there are a LOT of used chassis and parts available. You can get them anywhere, unlike trying to find some production car parts. A 10 year old Troyer dirt chassis can still be used competitively in the “Sportsman”-type classes… and they have full 24 car fields most of the time. Plus, if you’d like to move up in class, you don’t have to haul everything to the curb and start over. Many of the same parts can be used in the upper classes also.
On the other hand, these cars don’t have anything in common with a street car that you could identify. New fans need something they can identify with… Modifieds and Sprints generally aren’t appealing to the first-time visitor. Super Late Models look something like what you may see on the street… but then WAIT… every car looks exactly the same as each other. Now the Limited Lates come out… and THEY look identical to the SLM’s. Nobody cares if it has a Blue Oval decal, or a Red Bowtie sticker.
I think the trick is to create a tube-chassied car, with a Production car body that fans can identify with. Use rock-hard tires, lots of nerf bars, and make sure that aerodynamics play as little role as possible. You can get the chassis cheap, the replacement parts are plentiful, and the bodies can come from any junkyard in America. I think you’d have a class that handles well, looks (sorta) like a street car, discourages big-dollar motors, and would be affordable to keep on track.
I know, I know… the LAST thing we need are more divisions. But, in this case, it would be radically different rather than just another class of Monte Carlos. Relying on chassis that came from Detroit is just not “big picture” thinking. We need more vision to find ways to use what is readily available, rather than scavenger hunting looking for cars to fill out the fields.
[B][I]Chassis like this could do the job:
http://www.johnsonchassis.com/Home_Page.php
All GM metric chassis parts fits it.
No expensive tricky trick stuff here. Just plain basic.
Finish it up with a non aero style body work, Good Year 2463 A 400(a rock is softer), OEM rear & front suspension, 75$ claim shocks.
Spread this ruling on ALL Fla tracks, SAME EVERYWHERE, Asphalt and Dirt, within a year or 2, you’ll see.[/I][/B]
There have been some great ideas posted here . Now the question is , who do we see about getting it done . I hope there are some track owners and promoters paying attention .