ATTN: Sportsman, ProTruck, Super Stock and Street Stock Competitors

FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING KARNAC's FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING
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Hey guys. Let me ask you all a question. Are you currently satisfied with the Hoosier 650S and 450S tires that we are mandated to run? Are you finding, like I am, that they are only good enough to be competitive and win on for the first night you run them? Do you find this unacceptable since they are $520+ a set and these classes routinely run for less than that TO WIN (nevermind 2nd on back)? Well, I think I have the answer. I have done some research on a suitable tire that could be a replacement and have come up with the Hoosier 800 tire. Why the Hoosier 800? First and foremost this tire has a reputation of LASTING. It also is exactly the same design as the 650/450 tires (grooved bias ply 8" tire) except for the rubber compound. The switch to this tire should be a smooth transition for a few reasons. First, being of the same design it should require minimal set up changes (as opposed to going to a different tread type or manufacturer). Second, by running the same compound all the way around the car you don’t need all your tires to be dedicated “Right Side” and “Left Side” tires (like the OWM’s now enjoy with the F-53 all the way around those cars). Third, by having the same compound all the way around the car, bolting up 2 new right sides only will make a difference (whereas with the 650/450s the lefts are so soft that you need four tires). Lastly, the price should be about the same for these tires (actually less for the prices I have seen). But don’t take my word for it, here’s what people who race on these are saying:

“…they last a real long time. They just plain don’t wear out. The 800 is a very good tire…will far outlast the 970 or 880. I would like to see more tracks go to these tires. The 800’s have more grip and will last longer than the Hoosier “Sportsman”…I know many drivers are very happy with them.”-Day Racing 11

“We run them at Kalamazoo with the Sportsman. Kalamazoo is a tire eatin’ track. We have a set with over 200 laps on them that are putting down the same times as a set with 30 laps on them. Some of the Pure Stock cars haven’t changed tires all year. They are basically hard slicks with grooves.”-Russrace

In the Midwest many Late Model teams are mandated to run these tires, so they are certainly up to the task for our type of racing. Check out this old press release from Hoosier themselves:

www.hoosiertire.com/HOO800.HTM

IMHO a change to these tires for these classes would really do wonders to make racing more affordable and greatly increase car counts on a week to week basis. Here’s why:

Changing to the 800 would require you to buy less tires all year (the budget racers biggest expense by far). Buying less tires make you able to afford to compete waaaaaaay more often. You could still buy the same amount of tires but race 2-3 times more often.

A harder tire makes expensive motors less important and puts a premium on driving, handling and setup. Think you’re a great driver with a good handling car but can’t afford the big motor? With these tires you may just be competitive again without having to break the bank. Instead of a lot of cars sitting in mothballs, they could be out racing competitively again.

A lot of drivers are discouraged because they don’t have the money of the “rich guys” who buy four tires every race. I know myself, I won’t even load the car up if I don’t have new tires on the car. Wouldn’t it be nice to know that you can take your car to the track with 3 race old tires and a tired old motor and still have a legitimate shot to win?

If you compete in these classes and I’m “preaching to the choir” with what I am saying, then now is the time to sound off. We are in July and the tire deals are getting to be made for 2015 for every track. Either chime in to this thread with your opinions/agreements/points and/or let the people at your home track know your feelings on this matter and what you would like to see.

Here’s why this change is good for EVERYONE who goes to the racetrack:

FANS- Wouldn’t you rather see races on a regular Saturday night at your local track with A LOT more cars in these classes? And not just field fillers, but more cars with a LEGITIMATE CHANCE TO BE COMPETITIVE? Wouldn’t that be more entertaining? Wouldn’t that make you want to come out more often for just a regular event?

TRACK OWNERS: If you sell tires or not the point is moot. I’ve said before, as racers we have a budget. Part of that budget is for tires. For almost all of us, we will run as many races as we can buy tires for that will allow us the chance to be competitive. REGARDLESS OF THE TIRE WE ARE ON, MOST OF US WILL BUY A SET NUMBER OF TIRES PER YEAR. Now if we were on a tire that lasts longer and evens up the field you are going to get more racers to compete more often and will get cars off of jackstands in garages and back to the speedway if there is a feeling that they can compete. Waaaay more racers. True, you might sell a few less tires. But are you guys in the tire selling business or the armband selling business? If you make $20 on a tire and $25 on a Pit Pass, which would you rather sell? Everyone knows it’s a domino effect. More cars, more often puts on a better show, sells more pit passes, draws more fans, sells more hot dogs, beer, programs, 50-50 money, etc and so on and so on. Ask yourself a question. Do you think your fans want to see the 5-7 car fields that regular events for Sportsman, ProTrucks, Super Stocks and Street Stocks are routinely drawing?

So let’s hear it. How bad do you all want this? Now is the time to beat the drum. Or be satisified running tires that don’t last and be faced with the choice of running around in the back or staying home a lot. The choice is up to you.

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I HAVE to chime in here for sure! First off, GREAT post and thank you for taking the initiative to do the research and look out for all of us!

Guys, the 800 is a fantastic tire. We run this exact tire in every division except the Modifieds at Stafford Motor Speedway. They are a hard enough tire that they do not fall off a whole lot and are able to endure many heat cycles without losing their good, but soft enough that they still give you plenty of feel and you aren’t having to saw at the wheel to get the car to stay in it’s lane. The last time Stafford ran (damn rain) the winner of the race was on 4 week old tires and was barely a half tenth slower than 2nd place who was trying to run him down with brand new tires.

Like Scott said, let’s be proactive. Speak up and let your voice be heard. There are a lot of promoters/owners/officials that view this site on a daily basis and I am sure they are open to ways to help us be able to race more often and fill those fields up!

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Holy guacamole, Phil! I had raced Late Models for years at Stafford, but didn’t realize that they had changed to the Hoosier 800. I do know that the NE Mini Stock Tour also runs this tire in 13 and 14 inch sizes. It’s nice to hear that somebody has some experience in racing these tires first hand, backing up my research. Also nice to know that they do last and are good enough to win at very tough Stafford on the fourth night on them. The Stafford Late Model class is very competitive. One year when I ran there we had 16 different winners in 22 races! If anyone has any particular questions about these tires ask away! I’m sure between Phil and myself we can get the answers first hand from guys racing on them right now.

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I think it would be a good change. Like you said, racers will be able to go racing with out always having the thought of bolting new tires up. Or if they want to bolt tires up every race then have at it. I was going to be attempting to race 5 out of the next 6 weeks which will be a minimum of 3 sets, but it doesn’t seem like it will happen now due to a sponsor backing out. Other than fuel occasionally, or a part here or here that my dad helps with, everything comes out of my pocket. Now I’m not 100% complaining about the tire we are on or downing it completely, but if Sportsman were on a tire like you are suggesting, I would have no issue racing a lot more often and at more tracks. The tire the class is on is a great one race tire. We normally have 5 people in the pits, sometimes more, along with atleast 4 in the stands. So with us not being there its that much less the track is taking in, plus money from the concession. Im for the 800s, or atleast trying them, what could it hurt at this point?

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I’m willing to bet that ZERO tracks will go to this tire. They’re too greedy.

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Josh, thanks for the reply. Now Josh is one Sportsman driver with a very fast car, that like me, races as his budget allows. I dont think Josh (ss82) has made it out this year yet because of money. As Josh says, “It’s a great one race tire”. One race sucks. Track owners are you listening?

RSB, I hope thaf you’re wrong and that the tracks can see the forest from the trees. Being greedy and forcing working class hobby racers to race on a “one race” tire will only make you money from those that show up. You make ZERO off all those that don’t come. Not to mention all of the other money they will lose over being greedy. The smart track operator will forgo the short term greed to make money hand over fist with larger car counts in the windfall that follows the larger car count and everything that follows. Eventually a larger car count will result in MORE tires being sold in the long run too. The money guys will still buy tires regularly and the others will still have to buy tires at some point. Short term greed vs. long term financial stability and profit. So track operators, which one are you? Short term greedy type or smart long term growth with benefits everywhere that the money can flow in from type? I know that New Smyrna and Citrus do not sell the tires themselves (Donny Nerone Jr. does). They would have the most to gain and the least to lose by making Donny supply the Hoosier 800. Let’s see who’s smart and who’s greedy. The smart guy will get the car count.

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Why dont you

[QUOTE=scottgarrity07;147549]Josh, thanks for the reply. Now Josh is one Sportsman driver with a very fast car, that like me, races as his budget allows. I dont think Josh (ss82) has made it out this year yet because of money. As Josh says, “It’s a great one race tire”. One race sucks. Track owners are you listening?

RSB, I hope thaf you’re wrong and that the tracks can see the forest from the trees. Being greedy and forcing working class hobby racers to race on a “one race” tire will only make you money from those that show up. You make ZERO off all those that don’t come. Not to mention all of the other money they will lose over being greedy. The smart track operator will forgo the short term greed to make money hand over fist with larger car counts in the windfall that follows the larger car count and everything that follows. Eventually a larger car count will result in MORE tires being sold in the long run too. The money guys will still buy tires regularly and the others will still have to buy tires at some point. Short term greed vs. long term financial stability and profit. So track operators, which one are you? Short term greedy type or smart long term growth with benefits everywhere that the money can flow in from type? I know that New Smyrna and Citrus do not sell the tires themselves (Donny Nerone Jr. does). They would have the most to gain and the least to lose by making Donny supply the Hoosier 800. Let’s see who’s smart and who’s greedy. The smart guy will get the car count.[/QUOTE]
Why dont you buy a set,mount them, and let a few teams test them. I have been on 750’s and they where harder then the old Firestones. Thank about what you are asking for before you jump in too deep. A track like D/S may be good for the hard tires, but you would slow the cars down a good bit at NSS and OSW:huh:

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Xracer: No doubt a harder tire will slow the cars down a bit but that’s just what happens with harder tires. Stafford is a big rather flat half mile. If the Late Models can get around there on the 800, then it should be no issue anywhere here. They are also on BIG horsepower Late Models in Indiana, Wisconsin and Michigan. If the Late Models can get around on them, then Sportsman and Trucks should be a piece of cake. But you will have to DRIVE the car. I expect push back from the big money, big motor guys on this issue because if you spent all that money on your engine, you love those soft tires. Buy four a night and let it eat. But thats not practical anymore. The money is just not there. Unless you like the five car fields. The 800 will make everyone have to do their homework, make the car handle and DRIVE the car and keep it underneath them. Stafford, Kalamazoo, Wisconsin Dells, and the Big 8 Late Model Series are tracks and Series that have their sh*t together. If they can make it work, so should we.

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…And don’t feel bad for the big money, big motor guys. They will still get to spend their money. But it will be at the chassis shop, not the motor shop. Guys like AMF will figure the tire out, get the setup and valve the shocks accordingly. Like Matt Albee says, the guys who run up front will still run up front and win most of the races. Only difference is the field will be bigger, the racing will be better, the fans will get a show and the low buck guy who buys a used tire from the money guys won’t be buying outright junk.

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Great post Scott and way to do some research. Question for you, if the little guy (for lack of a better term) knows that the well-funded guy is still gonna outspend him on shocks and chassis, do you think the cars will get dusted off and come out? I hope so, just throwing that out there. I guess the next step is to tackle the shocks like dirt limited LM and mods do.

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Ok then

Well if you want to do something about tires, just go to the 4-1-2-1-2 rule, so that you can only buy the number of tires that is posted. if you dont race, then you cant buy that nite. You always want to do something with all the tracks,so here you go. Get this started state wide. Your first nite,you get 4. Then you fall in on whatever the nite’s number is

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Our tires are

Our tires are holding up well,this year,we have ran 2nites at OSW and 2-50’s at A-Dale on the set that are on the car now. Crate motors and no gear seems to be working just fine. You know the old saying, " Sometimes you have to slow down a little to go faster". If you overdrive the car, then the tires are junk after 25 laps. The guys that are always sideways are the ones that need and buy tires eveyweek.

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Xracer: Tire limiting can be a solution but it is a pain for the tracks, which means they are less likely to do it. Two tires also sucks with this combo we have, so I don’t think it would help car counts that much. I don’t know how you are getting that kind of life out of these tires. The guys I know who are running up front and winning are running crates and buying four a night. These tires have been known to fall off 2-3 tenths after the first heat cycle alone! FUPS Tour guys were bolting on four without scuffing for time trials because of that. First night they great. Second night they are ok but not good enough to win on and the third night the car is almost out of control on a long run. NSS is the only place where you can get 2 maybe 3 races out of a set, but NSS is easy on tires.

Bowlegs: Guys can spend all they want at the chassis shop. There are money rules in place for shocks though. Driving and setup (which, if your knowledgeable , you don’t have to pay for) will be at a premium. That combined with the life of the tire and how it will bunch the field up should get guys to come out.

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Every dirt track that I have been to the track parts vendor sells the tires.He makes about $5 profit on each tire.The same tires can also be purchased on the internet or at local race shops.

[SIZE=“6”]THE RACETRACK SHOULD NOT BE IN THE TIRE BUSINESS PERIOD ![/SIZE]

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I agree Kendo, but it is the nature of the beast on asphalt around here. I don’t really have a problem with the track making money off tires, hell they give us a place to race. But our classes are stuck with a situation that is not of our making. You see these tires were tested and implemented for the OWM class. They originally had 650s all around but the OWM guys complained and they used the even softer 450s on the lefts. Since traditionally the OWM tires are also used for Sportsman and Trucks, we went to them too. But the cow has long since left the barn and the OWM’s are exclusively on Hoosier F53 slicks now (which ironically are good enough to win for 2 nights on an OWM with all that HP). We are all left stuck on a tire that was never intended for us to begin with. It’s time to put us on a tire that suits our needs. At the same time if we are smart about the change we make, we can improve car counts for the support classes and help the overall health of local racing. I don’t want to see anyone left holding the bag here. Let’s use up the inventory of 650s and 450s the rest of 2014, and move on.

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I will share my personal racing situation. I would really like to race 2 to 3 times a month, however the tire bill is far to expensive. So instead I sit out for 6 weeks at a time to save money for one race. So the tracks make 10 dollars a tire on me every 6 weeks instead of my pit pass every other week. The fuel cost isn’t the issue neither is the travel. Simply put i would race more if the tires were useless after 1 night of racing. I’ve been doing this for alot of years now, when we had the goodyears and could get 3 nights of good racing that was the way it should be. I’ve seen guys bolt 4 sticker tires on for a feature that paid 350 to win, and then do it again the next week. This is crazy! If the tracks don’t get there arms around this soon there won’t much of a show left…

Patrick Mennenga

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“FANS- Wouldn’t you rather see races on a regular Saturday night at your local track with A LOT more cars in these classes?”–S Garrity

ABSOLUTELY!

Who knows what tires they are running? Who cares?

In fact, racecars that are not “stuck” are much more fun to watch, require more skill, and are conducive to closer competition.

“The Racetrack should not be in the tire business period!”–Kendo

Agree again. It is amazing how their own “rules” (and this is a rule–either pay up or you are not competitive) cut their own throat.

Again, first and foremost the “promoter” needs to have a show for the fans. Then the money will flow. All the other stuff will earn a little right now while killing the golden goose (or Dave Duncan’s blue goose, as the case may be…) once and for all.

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Thanks for the insight Patrick. Patrick has been at this game around here as long as anybody. This tire deal keeps him racing only once every 6 weeks. That’s the grim reality of what these tires are doing to racing. Everything in his post is true for me also. I try to race around once a month, when I can. I would easily be able to double that if we had a tire that we could get 3 good races out of. The guys who win a lot have told me they hate this tire situation also. Not to out anyone, but Patrick Thomas and Aaron Williamson have expressed their displeasure with these tires and how often you have to buy them to be competitive. Everyone in the pits watches Brandon Morris buy 4 tires every time he races. Brandon probably has the best handling Sportsman in FL, as well as being one smooth driver. What message do you think it sends to everyone when even Brandon needs to buy four tires every race?

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@Old School: I don’t think it was anybody’s malicious intent to have us required to use these tires that are only competitive for one race. A tire test was done at Citrus for OWM’s and, at the time, this combination gave them the grip they needed with all that OWM HP. After racing on them for a while they realized that these tires were only good for one race and a change was made for them to go to the F53 slick that they can get two good races out of. The rest of us were left on this tire and it just remained the status quo. When I talk to different track operators about how this tire is unsuitable for support class racing, they generally just shrug their shoulders and say that every track is on these tires. Now I applaud that a few years back the effort was made by every track to get each respective division on the same tire everywhere. But the short life span of these tires is really now hurting the weekly car counts in all the classes that run them. The switch to the Hoosier 800 will really work best if every track goes to them. But if greed really is a factor, then I say to the victor go the spoils. If some tracks switch and others don’t, then those who forgo the greed for a bigger car count deserve to reap the reward. I’m hopeful that there will be some kind of agreement between all the tracks to switch to the same tire together.

Addressing another one of your points, I totally agree that a little less grip will lead to a better show to watch. It tightens up the field and makes for a more exciting show for the fans to watch. It also seperates the men from the boys, since car control becomes more of a factor and the truly great drivers will rise to the top.

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You know, something I neglected to mention before that I just thought of… So far from what I have seen this year, these tires are pretty resilient when impacted and hold air well on severely bent rims and seem to not be as prone to punctures due to sidewall contact as other tires I have seen. As I mentioned before, they run these tires in every division except the Modifieds at Stafford here in CT. Anyone who has ever seen the Dare Stock division or Late Model division at Stafford knows that the racing can be pretty physcial to say it nicely. About 4 weeks ago, we had someone drive right over the left front of our Dare Stock and took out the fender, bumper and hood. There was a pretty decent gash in the tire but it did not fail and we were able to finish the race. We have also seen the bash brothers racing of the Late Models test these tires pretty well recently with a couple pretty good hits taken directly to the wheels/tires. There just do not seem to be as many punctures with these as with previous tires. It may be just simply coincidental, but as a general observation I think there may actually be something to this. :ernaehrung004: