What happened at Showtime last nite

Where did all the Sportsman cars go? Did Yoho do something wroung?

They were all at New Smyrna :ernaehrung004:

This is just going to be a guess for me as to what has happened to the sportsman car count at Showtime. Showtime has a tread width rule, for there sportsman class which no other track has, they also have a $65.00 shock rule, while that probably isn’t a bad thing it is helping keep cars from showing. The other reason that I see is that they are still allowing the 650/450 tire and will be for months to come, that is the rule I think driving the most cars away.

Once again this is only my opinion, but also the reason why I won’t go race Showtime anytime soon.

They posted a payout of 15 cars or more at $1500 to Win for 50 laps
Or 14 or less would get $1000 to win for 50 laps
They got 5 cars
They shortened the race to 25 laps and still had an excellent payout
$500 to win
$400 for second
$300 for third
$200 for fourth
$100 for last

Get the rules and tires in line with everybody else and the cars will follow.

Patrick Thomas 25

Patrick Thomas 25 what is the difference between and Limited and a Sportsman???

[SIZE=“4”]You have been in Sportsman a long time. You CAR lookS like a Late Model. What would it take the make it a level playing field??? If so you know my next question… Please call me at 813-817-7223. Thanks.[/SIZE]
:ernaehrung004:

Patrick

Why would the 450/650 keep cars away ? he is also allowing the new 750 isn’t he ? just curious because the new 750 is supposed to be so much better ?

Take a look at NSS… You’ll see how much better it is… 22 cars do not lie… They are averaging 18.5 cars per race so far this season.

[QUOTE=Bobby Diehl;158345][SIZE=“4”]You have been in Sportsman a long time. You CAR lookS like a Late Model. What would it take the make it a level playing field??? If so you know my next question… Please call me at 813-817-7223. Thanks.[/SIZE]
:ernaehrung004:[/QUOTE]

Combine LM with LM, leave the Sportsman alone! Why screw with something that is working?

First off, apologies to any Sportsman drivers that feel like the objective is to “screw with what is working”.

But here is why:

It has to do with ongoing objectives for the health of the racetracks, and having somewhere for the racers to race and the spectators to spectate.

If there are many classes with only a few cars each that is not a “good” show in my opinion.

Back in the day-and to this day-typically the “best” cars are the late models, and run as the last, and theoretically best, event of the evening.

However, with the exception of a big show with a big purse, they are either non existent or only a few cars that sometimes are not close to each other.

This leaves the fans going home with a general vague feeling of “well that was just okay”–or worse.

Further, the Sportsman class is what the late models should be.

Reasonably affordable, diverse in appearance, lots of them, good hard competition…

So why not essentially bring the high dollar cars into compliance and call them all “late models?”.

Two reasons:

>The high dollar boys will understandably feel that their investment has been “wasted” and this will be a step “back”.
>The Sportsman guys will feel threatened by both the possibility of their own costs going up and by having David Rodgers next to them in the lineup.

Personally, if it is done right and the overall objective is a big affordable field, rather than getting lost in heads/shocks/what a famous guy wants to run, it will improve the health of the sport, and the bottom line for everyone.

Dunno if it is “right”, but that’s why…

[QUOTE=OldSchool+;158353]First off, apologies to any Sportsman drivers that feel like the objective is to “screw with what is working”.

But here is why:

It has to do with ongoing objectives for the health of the racetracks, and having somewhere for the racers to race and the spectators to spectate.

If there are many classes with only a few cars each that is not a “good” show in my opinion.

Back in the day-and to this day-typically the “best” cars are the late models, and run as the last, and theoretically best, event of the evening.

However, with the exception of a big show with a big purse, they are either non existent or only a few cars that sometimes are not close to each other.

This leaves the fans going home with a general vague feeling of “well that was just okay”–or worse.[/QUOTE]

We have gone over this a million times bud… It’s not even feasible to make the changes required to make a PLM run with a Sportsman. NEITHER side will ever agree to do it simply because of the financial side of it, there is absolutely NO simple or cheap way to do it end of discussion.

If you want to combine divisions, take the SLM and PLM, make them conform to THIS rule book and be done with it. As I have said 500 times, this division under these rules runs tracks from 5/8 mile to 1/4 mile and every combination is competitive and has a fair chance no matter where they are. Those are the two closest divisions to possibly make one.

Until you really begin to understand how different a sportsman and a slm/plm are from each other in so many ways, you will never get it…

I see your “normal” mood is back (lol)!

“…there is absolutely NO simple or cheap way to do it end of discussion.”–PJ

Huh. As mentioned to Mr. Garrity-who confirmed the viability-put a crate motor in any late model, make them run a Sportsman RF spring, and Sportsman weight and tires. Call them late models. Done.

Even if NO late models try it, the Sportsman Class cars are henceforth called late models. Done.

I am proposing essentially crate specs, but not sealed crates with no chance of tuning, but that would not have to happen…

[QUOTE=OldSchool+;158356]I see your “normal” mood is back (lol)!

“…there is absolutely NO simple or cheap way to do it end of discussion.”–PJ

Huh. As mentioned to Mr. Garrity-who confirmed the viability-put a crate motor in any late model, make them run a Sportsman RF spring, and Sportsman weight and tires. Call them late models. Done.

Even if NO late models try it, the Sportsman Class cars are henceforth called late models. Done.

I am proposing essentially crate specs, but not sealed crates with no chance of tuning, but that would not have to happen…[/QUOTE]

I disagree. It’s nowhere near that simple. The suspension package alone on the SLM and PLM cars are miles above what a sportsman has. I think you seriously mistook what Scott may have said because it’s nowhere near that simple. If you put a SLM or PLM at Sportsman weight on sportsman tires with a sportsman RF spring (whatever the hell that means since everyone runs different setups and a rf spring isn’t going to make a magical difference) the SLM and PLM are still going to walk away from the Sportsman. The sportsmans just don’t have the technological advances that a SLM or PLM has. A sportsman is a very primitive simple car comparatively and it just won’t work.

As for calling the Sportsmans, Late Models… No… They are called Sportsmans all over the country… That’s just the division they are and have been for many years.

And no my normal mood is not really back… I just head one of the dumbest ideas I have ever heard. Sorry

Okay, here is the ball.

I think we can agree (but who knows {lol}) on the following:
>Low car counts suck.
>The late models generally have low car counts.
>Late models are very expensive.

You may or may not agree with the following:
>I was unaware of the various motor combinations that are “legal” in a late model. Similarly, I would suggest most fans are unaware of the rest of it. If it has a good looking body (like Garrity’s or Patrick’s) and is called a late model, we won’t know the difference. That is the original premise.

But nonetheless, what is your non-dumb idea?

ps–I have some pretty dumb ideas from time to time, you sure that was one of the dumbest?

[QUOTE=OldSchool+;158358]Okay, here is the ball.

I think we can agree (but who knows {lol}) on the following:

>Low car counts suck.
>The late models generally have low car counts.
>Late models are very expensive.

You may or may not agree with the following:
>I was unaware of the various motor combinations that are “legal” in a late model. Similarly, I would suggest most fans are unaware of the rest of it. If it has a good looking body (like Garrity’s or Patrick’s) and is called a late model, we won’t know the difference. That is the original premise.

But nonetheless, what is your non-dumb idea?

ps–I have some pretty dumb ideas from time to time, you sure that was one of the dumbest?[/QUOTE]

I gave you my idea. Have PLM and SLM conform to the above listed and linked rulebook. It’s PROVEN and there would be minimal changes needed. There are a TON of SLM in FL and probably a large number of PLM too that are just in hiding. Sportsman had 22 cars this week at NSS. That division is and has been on the rise all on it’s lonesome. No need at all to screw up something that is working right now and working really well. I agree low car counts suck, but making people spend or lose large amounts of money blend into another division is not going to help them come out.

The biggest problem with car counts there as I have said and has been echoed by many, is that there are too many similar divisions split into multiple different sub divisions. Combine LIKE divisions. SLM and PLM are close enough you can make work. Same with V8 Strickly/Bomber/Street Stock type divisions and some 4cyl divisions. Combine what is feasible don’t make people spend needles money or it’s only going to do further damage.

The guys with cars under a tarp already need to go through the car, buy tires, do whatever money spending it takes to meed “slm,llm,etclm” rules, fix the trailer, all that.

As we have read, some indicate that the weekly net LOSS to spend an evening at the races is prohibitive, period.

My thinking is this: To the guy who is in that boat, the limited motor costs, limited tires costs, the idea of being competitive for the win may just get them out of the garage.

Otherwise, they know their car is outdated, and thinking about running a half a lap down for $250 is just not enough to move them.

And it is bigger than that. Fans want late models. If the field/show is not great, it is THE TRACK that gets blamed, not the expense.

And ultimately it is the track’s fault, for allowing the late model money evolve to the point where there are few cars.

2700 lbs. ACT with a ACT approved Seal 603 Chevy Motor

2725 lbs ACT with a ACT approved Seal 347jr Ford Motor

2700 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed 604 crate engine (Nats, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)

2700 lbs. GSPSS Spec Motor
(Must be sealed by Jack’s Competition Engines)

2775 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed Ford 3 47SR Crate Engine. (Nat’s, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)

2750 lbs. Cam Change 604 (must have all GM seals or a Nat’s, Butler, or RPM Seal indicated with a CC on the seal in Place)

2775 lbs. Steel Head 4412 Engine (add 25 lbs. for Roller Cam)

Non -sealed 604 may be approved, contact GSPSS BEFORE event.
Any Non Sealed engine will carry a minimum of a 25lb penalty

Now that will simplify things, and no one will need to spend money, and none of those combinations will have an advantage…

I’m fine with calling them Late Model Sportman but taking a division that is having a resurgence like Sportsman and changing them is ludicrous and self destructive. I was ok with allowing a provision to allow Sportsman to compete in some kind of combined Late Model deal like Bobby proposed. I thought a lightened up Sportsman with more left side could compete with detuned LM’s. Someone smarter than me quickly pointed out that you could never make a Sportsman that light and still get the big left side weight numbers. It’s physically impossible. Old School, you yourself said the Sportsman race at NSS was the best race you had seen there in years. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Fix the other classes. Don’t screw with Sportsman. There’s a formula with us that is making affordable AND competitive racing right now.

The 650/450 Hoosiers are a little faster than the R750 tires. That’s why most guys feel if you can run them you have an edge. The thing that makes the R750 “better” is that they have only slightly less grip than the old tires but last 3 times longer. I agree with Patrick that the rules differences between Showtime and everywhere else are keeping the cars away from Showtime. My car would need shocks, rims and tires to be legal there. How Yoho interprets his own rules is sketchy also when it comes to Sportsman. In addition the tiered payout based on car count keeps cars away too. I really don’t care about Yoho or his 3 ring circus but his rules also hurt the car counts at Desoto by making guys have to have different tires, shocks and rims to feel competitive at both places. As a result some guys run one place or the other. That sucks because the tracks are not a far distance from one another and both could benefit from uniform rules (and enforcement).

“Old School, you yourself said the Sportsman race at NSS was the best race you had seen there in years. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. Fix the other classes. Don’t screw with Sportsman. There’s a formula with us that is making affordable AND competitive racing right now.”–Scott

Feel like I am being misunderstood, here. The Sportsman thing is working, and is coming on stronger all the time, while the late model races are slimmer in number and in car count than they have been.

So why not promote the Sportsman, make them the top class, and call them late models?

signed–Dumb AND Ludicrous. Maybe I can be stupid with a weight break–the morning is young.

[QUOTE=OldSchool+;158361]2700 lbs. ACT with a ACT approved Seal 603 Chevy Motor
?
2725 lbs ACT with a ACT approved Seal 347jr Ford Motor
?
2700 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed 604 crate engine (Nats, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)
?
2700 lbs. GSPSS Spec Motor
(Must be sealed by Jack?s Competition Engines)
?
2775 lbs GSPSS approved, sealed Ford 3 47SR Crate Engine. (Nat?s, Butler, or RPM Seals in place)
?
2750 lbs. Cam Change 604 (must have all GM seals or a Nat?s, Butler, or RPM Seal indicated with a CC on the seal in Place)
?
2775 lbs. Steel Head 4412 Engine (add 25 lbs. for Roller Cam)
?
Non -sealed 604 may be approved, contact GSPSS BEFORE event.
Any Non Sealed engine will carry a minimum of a 25lb penalty

Now that will simplify things, and no one will need to spend money, and none of those combinations will have an advantage…[/QUOTE]

I have personally watched every combination here win at some point in the past 3 years. I don’t want to hear your sarcasm. This series has found a formula that works from top to bottom and it provides multiple options to allow people to run if they want.

You know, at the end of the day, it is up to the promoters.

Some tracks decided to run the grooved tire, and some racers are happy and some are not. The promoter’s decision, no doubt, was based on expected higher car count by mid season 2015.

As mentioned, the tracks and rules have allowed the situation to get where it is today, and will move forward in whatever fashion they think is best.

My suggestions are simply a starting point and intended to be thought provoking and helpful for the sport at all levels.

Whether you like them or not, it is up to the tracks to weigh their possibilities.