Roll, Roll, Rolex 24, Jan 26-27

FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING KARNAC's FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING
21

Good thing they were on the track.

(Florida Law) 316.183 Unlawful speed.—
(1) No person shall drive a vehicle on a highway at a speed greater than is reasonable and prudent under the conditions and having regard to the actual and potential hazards then existing. In every event, speed shall be controlled as may be necessary to avoid colliding with any person, vehicle, or other conveyance or object on or entering the highway in compliance with legal requirements and the duty of all persons to use due care. [underline added]

A three point ticket, methinks.

When y’all look like automobiles imitating a bowling alley in the snow up yonder, do they pass out tickets (which, of course, blame the drivers, not the snow)?

I guess they do close the roads up nawth if there is enough snow. Perhaps that is part of your perspective, and fair enough.

Even then, there is “ice racing”.

Perhaps the IMSA boys should invest in some studded tires. They are running Escalades, after all. :slight_smile:

22

[QUOTE=OldSchool+;178022]"[In] some cases… drivers just drove full bore right into others…"- -PJ

Yep.

In every case that one or more just piled in there, others went by on the track, with intact bodywork, at a more reasonable speed.
[/QUOTE]

So, here is the point where the fact that you have never driven a racecar at speed, is glaringly obvious. I love ya man, but you’re clueless in this respect.

This is my point that you are hastily overlooking…

Your argument of a reasonable speed is flawed greatly.

With the visibility and conditions, it was extremely easy for these drivers to miss their breaking points. On that Daytona road course, and Joe will absolutely agree. If you overshoot a braking point by 1 or 2 cars, you’re in a lot of trouble. Compound that issue with the very wet conditions and ponding of water, all it takes is a slight overshoot and a failed attempt to slow back down and locking up the brakes to make it seem like you were going too fast. Once you lock the brakes in those conditions, you are just hydroplaning and not really scrubbing off as much speed as you would on a dry surface. How many times have you seen a guy lock up a tire on entry? It’s the same thing, except now there is a lubricant and instead of just missing it and losing time, you suddenly take off and you’re out of control. I watched many in car shots while at the track, and these guys could not see their braking points at all in many cases let alone anything else around them. So how do you suppose they are supposed to slow down properly? The spotter can only tell you so much as far as how to drive the car and in those conditions, his vision is severely hindered as well. He doesn’t know what your braking points are and realistically, it’s a race either way so these guys are out there trying to get everything out that they can which further compounds things. They aren’t being paid to cruise around cautiously. It was plain and simple, dangerous conditions.

I too have raced in the rain when I ran gokarts. It’s NOT fun and it’s extremely difficult. I too have simply overshot a braking point because I just didn’t have adequate visibility and misjudged. The amount of on throttle time from the exit of the infield to the bus stop, and from the exit of the bus stop to the entry of 1 at DIS is massive. You rely on visual points in those sections more than anything to know when to slow down. If you can’t see those points, then what?

23

BTW, back in the day I did “lose it” a few times and crashed a few times. I learned. And it was my fault, not the rain’s.

You were not under pressure to perform and drive the car as hard as possible every lap. It’s a race, not a drive to the gas station.

Patrick Thomas won the 2018 NSS Sportsman Championship with a 3 year old windshield that looked like it first was skateboarded on by insane teenagers, and then covered with black crayon by 2nd graders. No whining.

Patrick also raced under optimal track conditions, and trust me, I have raced with a beat up windshield before, it doesn’t compare to a FL downpour. It’s not even close to as bad.

24

Here is an irony:

As I stayed home on Sunday and imagined you in that mud pit, I watched the “ending” on TV.

And I thought to myself “You know, if Phil had his helmet bag and had his race face on, HE would be ready to go, unlike all these weenies on the tube.”

You mention go carts in the rain. Our track was not only wet, but intentionally oiled down. Used to run with the same guys once a week on the same oval, and they all eventually got pretty good. But in the rain…the other guys by and large looked like the sporty clowns that chose poorly. Me? Initially stayed on the bottom and (way) sideways, albeit at a reduced speed. After a while I got to where I could intentionally back it into the fence at a pretty good clip and bounce off and down the next strait. Talk about “diamonding” a corner!

Again, e-n-d-u-r-a-n-c-e event. For decades it went to those that played their cards right. Only recently has it become a 24 hour sprint race.

25

Another debacle that I was at Daytona for:

https://www.racingarchives.org/blogpost/water-in-the-fuel-the-strange-story-of-the-1976-24-hours-of-daytona/

Note that the track looks pretty darn wet in the bottom photo of the second-place-finishing Porsche. It was.

26

“So, here is the point where the fact that you have never driven a racecar at speed, is glaringly obvious. I love ya man, but you’re clueless in this respect.”–PJ

Sez you.

A car at the limit is a car at the limit. My Ramcharger with fat tires and big sway bars is not as fast as my Corvette in mph through a given turn. But they both have a break-away point, same as a faster-still racecar.

Now, to your point, short track guys are at 10/10ths, and you cannot get there on the street without tearing your junk up, and I have done plenty of that. Note that there is plenty of crashing on short tracks, and plenty of single car spins.

Realistically, you drive at 7-8/10ths on the street because if you guess wrong at the braking point or the turn tightens up, or etc., you wind up at 9 or 10/10ths. It is close to that on a road course, perhaps routinely one is at 8-9/10ths, as you cannot remember each turn PRECISELY (as you do at say, Citrus), and there may be sand or gear oil on the track (etc.) that wasn’t there the lap before.

But the rain throws all that out the window, and then one has to guess at his NEW braking point, which may change each lap. You know, same as on the street. And you either correctly guess long before the turn, or you crash when you get there. Like some did and some did not.

It separates the men from the boys. Again, I have confidence that you would be all over it.

And JOE has both the confidence and the experience of having BEEN all over it. I was there, no doubt watched him in the rain, and it was no cakewalk.

Still, as previously said, ALL OF THAT IS A MOOT POINT, since it was the weenies in the tower that made the call.

And you know, the last time they sent them out a bunch of them guessed wrong, cracked up, and they stopped them. The RIGHT call would have been to have waited, done that for the last 45-60 minutes, and if they ran one lap under “green” and then a bunch of caution laps repeatedly, so be it.

As it was, they made essentially the same call, incurred the same torn up equipment, but they had a lousy end to the race.

27

Phil, your theories and experiences are definitely reasonable in my opinion. However, I have been in races where I had to look out the side window to pick up a braking point because forward visibility was so poor. In my opinion, however, an experienced driver should be able to maintain a speed that is doable in those conditions. I think the problem was the people who crashed did not stay at the limit that would work. As OS said, some did not crash and spin. Here is a quick story about racing in the rain; In the mid 80’s at Palm Beach I was driving an open cockpit Sports Renault. We had a torrential downpour, and they started the race anyway. Big puddles everywhere and the rain continued as we took the flag. The SR class was brand new then, and no one had rain tires. No one that is, but a green as grass newbie. He passed all of us from the back and won the race. Why? Because we knew we could only drive so fast on the shaved tires. Phil, since you were there, what was the mood of the other ticket buyers?

OS, you are right, they should have waited till near the end, had a restart, and whoever crossed the line when they flagged it, won. I would have been ok with that.

28

More Bad Decisions…

Hey, it could have been worse.

Here are some rally drivers that chose poorly:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GqadJ43z-tM

(juuuuuuuuuust kidding :))

29

https://twitter.com/MotorsportsNBC/status/1089570818596712448?s=09

So by your logic, this is safe, and how it should have been done…

Got it!

The mood of the other ticket buyers was fuck this. Literally. At 6pm on Saturday night, the infield was packing up and preparing for a mass exodus. By 3am, it was a ghost town. Everybody left for the most part.

30

FYI, This was the Radar at 1pm Sunday with just about 1hr left in the race… Dropping the green when there was 1hr remaining would have been useless and an absolute disaster.

https://ibb.co/CK8dVZ1

31

By my logic… I am pretty sure car number one (the smash-ee) was in trouble. Why wasn’t he on the grass, or at least the apron?

If that is not the case, and regardless, car number two (the smash-er) was going faster than he could see ahead.

I don’t do that on the interstate, do you? And let us not make fun of the interstate. I do 50-60 (or less) in driving rain, depending on how far ahead I can see. How much light there is and the amount of rain hitting the windshield are both factors. Additionally, how much water there is on the road and the potential for hydroplaning enter into it. I try to follow someone moving about the same speed and get them to where I can just see them. I don’t know if I can always stop, but I try to be able to have room for one move.

When in the rain, the overriding factor is…slow down. If you are in doubt, slow down some more.

Essentially, that track was like an interstate and the turn-in was like a right hander at the end of an off ramp. No big deal. Unless you are going about double the appropriate speed in the name of your motherland and have your pride and your silk scarf thing going on.

You know, at any point in time in the dry you can flip on your “Go Pro”, close your eyes and and take a video just like that one! Same same, imo. Pedal down, can’t see–still your fault.

Oh, and you did notice the group of several cars on the low side going at a reasonable pace that were actually going to make the chicane, correct? They were better drivers, or at least made a better choice that day.

The “let’s leave” mood was mine also, but then, I wasn’t racing.

Radar looks fine to me. I drive in light hurricanes. That’s a fact, Jacque.

I am thinking we have both semi-eloquently stated our case, here.

But continue if you like sir, this beats working.

32

ps–

“Phil, since you were there, what was the mood of the other ticket buyers?”–Jacko241

“The mood of the other ticket buyers was f#&% this. Literally.”–Phil Jacques

Um, you guys were humping the mud…? :huepfen024:

33

Here is the point you seem to be missing. It’s a race. these drivers do not get paid to slow down. Said Porsche driver who drove into that one ran the same speed many laps before. The video IS out there. We watched it all happen on the tv stream. No issues at the speed he was going. Suddenly that lap, a car miraculously appeared 5 feet in front of him at well over 100mph. That wasn’t the only instance of this happening either. It happened multiple other times. Spotters were nearly blind to that side of the track so how could they help them know to slow down more? They don’t have TVs up there. Additionally you ask why hasn’t the guy who was hit get off the track? He was stalled. He had spun under braking and recovered, however was unable to fire it in time.

Look, I get your argument, but not one single driver in that field wanted to be on the track. Fernando Alonso included. It wasn’t safe. This was an unprecedented event, one that has never been seen in that event. It was surely a hard decision, but it was the right one.

When you’re trying to win a race, you don’t simply slow down. I never would, nor would Patrick, Sean Bass, Jesse Dutilly or any of them. Racers go out there for one purpose. To push the car to the limit of its capabilities and find the limit.

The fun thing about rain is, and Joe will have my back 110% on this… The track is never the same from lap to lap. You can go into the same corner two laps in a row and one lap you could have gone deeper, the next you went too deep. Rain racing is a very challenging thing. It’s unpredictable. In perfect wet conditions, that race could have ended no problem. It has many times. But there were 6" deep puddles and flooding all over the track. That’s an unreasonable surface to race any car on. Those cars rely on speed for grip as well. That’s where the downforce they create comes into play. Slowing them down destabilizes them further.

I’m done with this conversation. Have a good one.

34

“But while [the winning] teams were celebrating their rain-shortened racing success, others up and down pit road were upset, dismayed or disappointed with the outcome.”–Godwin Kelly, Daytona Beach News Journal

“I have to say I am disappointed in the decision IMSA made to not restart the race. I understand the safety aspect as well as anyone, having raced in the rain many times, including a majority of the 2008 24 Hour. This is a pros series that races in the rain, and should have finished under green whatever they had to do…I hope this gives them a bit of a black eye.”–Joe Jacalone (posts #12 & 14)

“I reckon we will have to agree to disagree on this one.”–Oldschool+ (post #20)

Certainly many do agree with Phil & the red flag non finish of the endurance event.

And now, hopefully, we can move on to another exciting topic here on KARNAC!