Well said, Phil. I agree it should help improve traffic at BOTH gates. The only guys who wouldn’t like this should (understandably) be the guys who win A LOT. And, all kidding aside, not handicapping is probably a major reason for the racing being much cleaner here than there.
[QUOTE=OldSchool+;158994]Huh, seems odd to have moved away from it then…
Here are the only reasons I can come up with:
>The tracks are trying to emulate parts of Cup racing to promote “professionalism”. Recently, I saw two mods at a time half a lap apart qualifying at Showtime, for instance.
>It started at “big” Tampa-200 style events, and now that, say, late models only run at a given track every month or so, all events are then promoted as “big” events.
>The big money/big motor guys lobbied for it.[/QUOTE]
If they are trying to emulate cup series for some reason they just need to STOP. Go back to your roots with handicap systems etc. Don’t try to emulate the cup series in any way shape or form. OS, do me a favor this weekend, if you attend a track, just observe and tell me how many people you see wearing NASCAR related memorabilia now, compared to say 1999 when NASCAR was about at its peak. I promise you will notice very few. Honesty other than an occasional Dale Sr shirt, all you see here now is local driver shirts. Even in the stands. There is a HUGE disconnect right now between what we do, and the top series of NASCAR. HUGE! And that is a BIG problem for us.
Let me ask you something on a bit of a different topic that I grew curious about this weekend, do they do any kind of on the fly crowd participation stuff in the event of a red flag? Something to keep the crowd amped up and occupied so they don’t get bored and want to leave? This is a serious question. Saturday night at Waterford there was a flip… Now, any time a car gets upside down it’s an instant red flag. Unfortunately, the ambulance clipped the new (narrower) pit gate and broke the weld on the lock tab for the gate and ripped it off, so in order to continue the show it was about a 25 minute repair so all in all there was about a 30-35 minute red flag. I saw and heard something I had never seen before in my life at ANY track… The new Promoter and new Manager of the Waterford Speedbowl out on the front walk in front of the grandstands asking all the little kids who their favorite drivers were over the PA system. When a kid would say who, the crowd would cheer. They were also handing out free tshirts and such as a kind of hold-over to see which sections of the stands could be the loudest. It was so loud, we could hear them in the pits behind the backstretch! They did this twice during the night as a legends driver got stuffed hard and broke his ankle and had to be transported so the show had to go on hold until another ambulance arrived. But it was the same result. Fan participation and interaction to keep people pumped up. It was definitely something I can not ever remember seeing at an oval and something I believe should be done EVERYWHERE now. Speaking to some of my friends who were on track in their cars during the red flag, they said hearing the crowd get pumped, pumped them up and made them go at it even harder afterwards. Keep in mind, we had about 80-85% full grandstands once feature time rolled around but DO any tracks down there do this? I am very curious.
[QUOTE=Phil Jacques;158997]If they are trying to emulate cup series for some reason they just need to STOP. Go back to your roots with handicap systems etc. Don’t try to emulate the cup series in any way shape or form. OS, do me a favor this weekend, if you attend a track, just observe and tell me how many people you see wearing NASCAR related memorabilia now, compared to say 1999 when NASCAR was about at its peak. I promise you will notice very few. Honesty other than an occasional Dale Sr shirt, all you see here now is local driver shirts. Even in the stands. There is a HUGE disconnect right now between what we do, and the top series of NASCAR. HUGE! And that is a BIG problem for us.
Let me ask you something on a bit of a different topic that I grew curious about this weekend, do they do any kind of on the fly crowd participation stuff in the event of a red flag? Something to keep the crowd amped up and occupied so they don’t get bored and want to leave? This is a serious question. Saturday night at Waterford there was a flip… Now, any time a car gets upside down it’s an instant red flag. Unfortunately, the ambulance clipped the new (narrower) pit gate and broke the weld on the lock tab for the gate and ripped it off, so in order to continue the show it was about a 25 minute repair so all in all there was about a 30-35 minute red flag. I saw and heard something I had never seen before in my life at ANY track… The new Promoter and new Manager of the Waterford Speedbowl out on the front walk in front of the grandstands asking all the little kids who their favorite drivers were over the PA system. When a kid would say who, the crowd would cheer. They were also handing out free tshirts and such as a kind of hold-over to see which sections of the stands could be the loudest. It was so loud, we could hear them in the pits behind the backstretch! They did this twice during the night as a legends driver got stuffed hard and broke his ankle and had to be transported so the show had to go on hold until another ambulance arrived. But it was the same result. Fan participation and interaction to keep people pumped up. It was definitely something I can not ever remember seeing at an oval and something I believe should be done EVERYWHERE now. Speaking to some of my friends who were on track in their cars during the red flag, they said hearing the crowd get pumped, pumped them up and made them go at it even harder afterwards. Keep in mind, we had about 80-85% full grandstands once feature time rolled around but DO any tracks down there do this? I am very curious.[/QUOTE]
STOP HIJACKING MY THREAD, BEEEOTCH!
SHHHH!!! I just asked a question lol
Threadjacquer–They all wear camo down in these here parts (Iffin’ I can remember I will let you know).
Now back to the inverted start thing.
[QUOTE=OldSchool+;159001]Threadjacquer–They all wear camo down in these here parts (Iffin’ I can remember I will let you know).
Now back to the inverted start thing.[/QUOTE]
Are you talking a complete inverted start? That turns into disaster. You can’t put the slowest of the slow at the front. Usually here they handicap the first 12-14 cars. Not a knock, but it would have to be adjusted for field sizes down there but it can work. It could be done by points earned over the past 3 consecutive races, money earned over that same time period, or another system. By doing it that way, new cars or guys who didn’t make the required starts to be eligible start in the rear and with there being a cutoff for it, it can also keep the stragglers from starting up front. There can also be a stipulation put in place by the tracks where if you are unable to run within say, a half second or so of the fastest practice time, you must relinquish your handicap position (just an example) to keep the really slow guys from getting run over by accident.
Yep, yep…it would work well with the runwhatchabrung bracket thing too.
What was Scott talking about again…?
[QUOTE=OldSchool+;159005]Yep, yep…it would work well with the runwhatchabrung bracket thing too.
What was Scott talking about again…?[/QUOTE]
2 things I know for certain…
Completely inverted starts are ALWAYS a disaster
Bracket style racing failed at one of the best little short tracks in this country (Rockford). If it didn’t work there, it WON’T work anywhere.
If you want to start playing with pulling pills for redraws or top part of the field inverts, that is cool cause it’s essentially a random handicap. But inverting an entire field is going to just be a shitshow from the start.
[QUOTE=Phil Jacques;159006]2 things I know for certain…
Completely inverted starts are ALWAYS a disaster
Bracket style racing failed at one of the best little short tracks in this country (Rockford). If it didn’t work there, it WON’T work anywhere.
If you want to start playing with pulling pills for redraws or top part of the field inverts, that is cool cause it’s essentially a random handicap. But inverting an entire field is going to just be a shitshow from the start.[/QUOTE]
I agree, nothing would make me quit racing EXCEPT forcing me to “bracket race”.
They pull pills now to shuffle the front. I ain’t enough.
[QUOTE=scottgarrity07;159007]
They pull pills now to shuffle the front. I ain’t enough.[/QUOTE]
Need more than 8 cars… A NSS Sportsman field should have pills up to about #14 with the way they are pulling cars. THAT would work.
Yes, that would be the way to do it in my opinion. Obviously, on the smaller fields you would invert less, percentage-wise.
Screw that. HANDICAP!!! That way EVERY driver is handi-capable of a chance to win!
I am not disagreeing with you, just giving an alternative option. I prefer Handicapping 100% over anything else ever.
Inverting by pill is the lazy way out and is being used in some way, shape or form at most places now anyway. It either makes the heats mean nothing or if it is used to just set the heat lineup, it ends up just putting the fast guys up front for the feature.
And to be clear…You would need to make this change at the beginning of the points season to be fair to everyone. In no way am I suggesting that it be implemented midstream of the season.
“…nothing would make me quit racing EXCEPT forcing me to ‘bracket race’.”--Scott Garrity
Wow, such emotion! I thought it sounded like “instant car count” to me.
Not that anyone listens to me (much less “making” or “forcing” anything {lol}), but we don’t want an outside chance that Scott will quit (!), so I’ll get off that.
(for now, at least…
)
Many of the tracks I raced at in the past all did it the same way: Pill draw for heat position, invert by points from position 1-18, and 19 on back were the B main guys. Now since Florida hasn’t seen enough cars for a B main since a hundred years ago you just mix that up a little. Say you have 20 cars. 2 ten car heats, lined up by draw. Top 6 in the heat go into the invert for positions 1-12, bottom 4 in heat take spots 13-20 by their heat finish. This makes the heat races mean something and still rewards the fast guys who get to the front of the heat.
invert
points system worked for us years 60s-80s I point for every 10.00 dollars paid . low points start front, high start rear. win,you start rear next race. I used to bitch about it . we never got to start up front. we had good car count. gate ,a-dale and st. pete outlaw mod. did run that way.
That sounds like a good and simple system, Dave. What did they do with new guys with no points? And was this total points for the year up to that point or just for like 3 or 4 weeks? I don’t like pill draw. Fastest guy still has a good chance of starting top 5. In a handicap they never can. I also like that everyone in front of you is rated slower than you (except non transfer cars) which gives you the opportunity to pass cars almost anywhere you start. As a driver, to me, it’s all about passing cars…
reply
3 race average ,lay out a week don’t count . new start in rear 2 weeks to see if they are not a hazzard