groundpounder,
I will elaborate. Phil touched on a few points. spoiled brats who destroy half the field while (learning) to drive in a SLM. They don’t care, daddy has a fleet of cars ready for them. Daddy money over the years has influenced the rules with “we want all high dollar parts” and many tracks jumped onboard catering to them instead of thinking of all competitors as a whole.
If someone is wealthy good for them. I’m not a king but i do pretty well myself.
I mean, who the hell are these dads?
[QUOTE=Benny The Mule;165349]groundpounder,
I will elaborate. Phil touched on a few points. spoiled brats who destroy half the field while (learning) to drive in a SLM. They don’t care, daddy has a fleet of cars ready for them. Daddy money over the years has influenced the rules with “we want all high dollar parts” and many tracks jumped onboard catering to them instead of thinking of all competitors as a whole.
If someone is wealthy good for them. I’m not a king but i do pretty well myself.[/QUOTE]
and your point is???
Where have tracks jumped on board for “high dollar parts”?
How many Daddy’s are there at each venue? What would YOU do with them?
Racing has ALWAYS been the haves and have nots.
[QUOTE=Groundpounder;165351]and your point is???
Where have tracks jumped on board for “high dollar parts”?
How many Daddy’s are there at each venue? What would YOU do with them?
Racing has ALWAYS been the haves and have nots.[/QUOTE]
Well, for one thing, outlaw the bumpstops on the supers. Conventional setups only.
Now we have just saved all the money for multiple sets of shocks, someone to build and dyno them, the bumpstops (all of them) and the gale force machine.
There is about 4000.00 or 5000.00 saved right there!
[QUOTE=bowlegs;165350]I mean, who the hell are these dads?[/QUOTE]Certainly not mine; he hauls his Super Late Model to the track(s) on an open trailer, with a 1988 Ford F350 dually. That’s when they can afford to go. Being forced to buy tires and fuel at the track has (mostly) limited their travel this year, along with the fact that Orlando has all but given up on the oval. He hauls from Vero Beach to St. Pete because YooHoo pays back through the field (and to start), from what I understand.
“Well, for one thing, [to save the competitors money,] outlaw the bumpstops on the supers. Conventional setups only.”--Exner
I would add, “outlaw the bumpstops across all classes”.
Seems to me, they effectively are the springs.
Back in the day, the cars did not push like a boat, and there was plenty of two wide racing.
Clearly, a bumpstop setup is faster than a conventional setup, but speed is relative. For instance, a two wide Sportsman race can be more interesting that a few faster late models. Speed is effectively irrelevant–both from a driving standpoint and a spectator standpoint.
Here is a question: Short of “my bumpstop setup is working better than the other guy’s right now and I am winning”, is there any argument to be made in favor of bumpstops?
[QUOTE=Groundpounder;165351]and your point is???
Where have tracks jumped on board for “high dollar parts”?
How many Daddy’s are there at each venue? What would YOU do with them?
Racing has ALWAYS been the haves and have nots.[/QUOTE]
Tracks don’t necessarily jump on board, but over time it progresses that way. Many of us are guilty of this to an extent, myself included. But we think we see a better way to do something with our cars that will save us money (on the surface) and we whine and complain until we get our way, but we don’t realize the trickle effect this has on everything. Not every track has an inspection crew with enough knowledge to see this either which is unfortunate. A prime example of this is straight out of my division up here. We are forced to run OEM Cast manifolds over the top log style manifolds. These manifolds have become increasingly harder and harder to find in junkyards without all the EGR crap on them, and when you do it usually costs about $100 for the pair, plus machine work to ensure the fact that they are true and not cracked. In the end, a good set can cost anywhere from $250-350 depending on where you go. We all thought we had a master solution to go with a set of headers we found that some other places are using on these G body metric cars, which is the Schoenfield #158 header. Thankfully, we have a tech inspector that has been around this sport for a very long time and knows the ins and outs of everything a little more than most of us. When we sat down and expressed our desire to switch to headers he very bluntly said absolutely not, never going to happen. But he didn’t stop there, he actually took the time to explain to us why, and it made sense. When you put on headers, it opens up these motors for more power. The head work can/will change, the cam profile can/will change etc which all costs money. Additionally we run STOCK Saginaw 3 speed and 4 speed transmissions and a stock 7.5 rear end with racing axles. He explained to us that the extra power and put added strain on these components too which will start causing things to break more. Something like that was kind of an eye opener with stuff we had never thought of. We only looked at the surface, which many racers do. I hear guys say, oh well let us run bump stops. But then shocks change, springs change, sway bars change, everything around that one thing, changes which drives up cost. So many tracks just kind of have a make everybody happy mentality which needs to stop because that is part of what is driving up the costs in racing. What one guy can afford, others may not. 10 years ago, you could build a solid turnkey pro stock or slm for 25-30k, now it’s upwards of 50-60k. There has to be a point where it needs to stop because as I have said numerous times, once you price the little guy out of this sport, whether it be mini stocks or super lates, you are going to sever the main artery and the sport will essentially bleed out… That artery has already been cut. We need to stop the bleeding before it’s too late. As I said before, seeing $5000 mini stock engines is common practice these days whether you want to believe it or not. Even in a division where the engine is supposed to be stock, these things are worked over in every way possible. There has to be a point at which it stops. End of story.
Oh, it’s never the end of the story…
Your tech guy made a compelling argument, but lost site of the initial premise–to get rid of the expensive manifolds.
Personally, I much prefer a class–any class–that runs headers. Sportsman would suck with manifolds, for instance. But I digress…
Why not use street rod style “block hugger” headers and/or mandate a 2" (or whatever) pipe after the headers?
The object would be–similar backpressure with less expense.
ps–Get one of them obnoxious siamese cats and name him “Jaws”!
[QUOTE=OldSchool+;165364]Oh, it’s never the end of the story…
Your tech guy made a compelling argument, but lost site of the initial premise–to get rid of the expensive manifolds.
Personally, I much prefer a class–any class–that runs headers. Sportsman would suck with manifolds, for instance. But I digress…
Why not use street rod style “block hugger” headers and/or mandate a 2" (or whatever) pipe after the headers?
The object would be–similar backpressure with less expense.[/QUOTE]
He really didn’t lose sight of the initial premise of the expensive manifolds at all.
So you tell me now, did he really lose sight of the initial premise? The outlet of these manifolds are 1-7/8". They are also very rough inside from the casting which affects flow and power as well. Also, ramhorns, blockhuggers etc do not work in a G Metric. We are not allowed an engine setback and due to the location of the crossmember, suspension mounts etc there are no other real options for this.
For 2016, they are giving us a strict reman part # that must be used stock out of the box from Dorman. An over the shelf piece you can get at Advance, AutoZone and Napa for $70 per side and has already been checked for cracks and machined.
Okay, so the dorman part negates the cost issue. New info.
For the sake of discussion though, the latest stepped, tri-y, 180 degree, long tube, ceramic coated, double wazmo headers will not perform as well as a manifold if you weld a plate over the end of the thing.
In other words, post header restrictors would have done it.
Was trying to help make your point…but no biggie, glad you have an inexpensive solution.
If you get the bumpstops just right, yes, they are fast. But by the same token if you are a little off on the bumpstops you are going to be way off.
Bumps do not belong in local racing classes, all of the time you have to invest working with them and all of the testing that is needed, they are not worth the money.
The bumps will work in the beginning of a 100 lap race, but after 30 or 40 laps of hard racing you have just about beat the tires off of the car, now you have to struggle with the car for the rest of the race.
Ex,
Please explain.
Seems like a spring is a spring, regardless of whether it is rubber, steel, hydraulic, air, whatever. The effective rate is the effective rate.
Now, I (think that I) know that the bump works because instead of leaning on the right front the car balances on the right rear, and the bump stop is something for the RF to land on rather than a spring in coil bind…
All that said, seems like side bite is side bite, albeit a little better with the bump stop perhaps.
Soooooooooooooooo, where does the increased tire wear come from?
A bumpstop effectively eliminates the springs in the car on full compression when you are actually ON the bump itself. The bumpstop is not as giving as a spring, thus you actually put extra load on the tires by asking them to be the spring for the entire front car as well. That extra load creates more heat and more wear. Very simple, and I agree 1000% that Bumpstops have NO place in weekly racing or even regional touring divisions.
Ah, I think I see now (said the blind man as he ran though the night).
The car does eventually lean on the right front, it just virtually instantly moves from the RR to the RF, and it is a hard “spring” when it gets there.
Still, you would think that would simply lead to a push, not extra loading of the tire.
But then, you are The Man, so I defer to your expertise.
Also sounds like a freaking handful to drive, particularly in the event of an, ahem, altercation when the car is loading and unloading rapidly.
[QUOTE=OldSchool+;165378]Ah, I think I see now (said the blind man as he ran though the night).
The car does eventually lean on the right front, it just virtually instantly moves from the RR to the RF, and it is a hard “spring” when it gets there.
Still, you would think that would simply lead to a push, not extra loading of the tire.
But then, you are The Man, so I defer to your expertise.
Also sounds like a freaking handful to drive, particularly in the event of an, ahem, altercation when the car is loading and unloading rapidly.[/QUOTE]
I am far from “The Man”… That was Dale Earnhardt, but I digress… I have no experience in the seat of a car with bump stops, however prior to ACT outlawing them, we tried them on the Late Model at Waterford. The car would change like a lightswitch. We got it to where the front would sit down on the front evenly on entry through experimentation with different and multiple stops on the shock shaft. We, at the time ran a 125LF and 150RF spring to help the set down quicker and more evenly on compression. We tried multiple things in the rear also and eventually ended up with a 450RR and 200LR with a biscuit in the 3rd link and RR trailing arm to try and enhance grip. The car was super fast for the first 20 laps of a race but typically, like a lightswitch, it would just go away and start to slide the nose in and snap sideways on throttle and exit. As was mentioned, it’s a very tricky setup and when it’s on, it’s on. We finished 2nd twice and 3rd once in the 10 race stretch we were trying it. Then they outlawed it by making a rule (a quite effective one at that) which basically said they roll your car up onto 2x6 planks on the front tires, and 1 person should be able to kneel on either corner of the front bumper lip, and compress the front end so that it touched the ground while on said blocks. This ruled out any chance of using bump stops. Now we are back to a more conventional BBSS setup with a huge 1-3/4" solid moly bar. You can still push the front end down and hit on those planks, but it’s much harder and only momentary rather than being able to just sit it right down. It was a great rule because it did inevitably cost a lot of time and money changing springs shocks bars bumps etc to get the car even close.
Yes, he was The Ironheaded Man…
Don’t believe bumpstops were part of his day, but then, I cannot remember jacque.
BTW, is Jacques pronounced-- “Jacks” or “Shocks”?
Phil is pretty much on spot with the explination of the bumps.
With the bumps, you run a soft spring, the coil spring just holds the car up while sitting it does nothing on the track, then when you enter the corner, the spring is irrevelant, the shock sits on the bumps and the tires becomes the spring, (increasing tire temps and wear).
Now it does not matter if you run rubber bump stops or flat washers the load gets transfered to the tire, there is a fine line with your load numbers also, shock travel and how far on the bump stop, then if you are traveling to much on the bump stop you have to either put in packers to pick the nose up because you are bottoming out on the track and hitting the crossmember, the footbox or the rack or the car is not turning and you have to take packers out.
There is so much involved in setting up the bumpstops, testing them, getting the wheel load numbers and all of the tinkering at the track the regular saturday night team cannot keep up with it or simply afford everything that is needed to just get bumps on the car, you really need a full time crew to work with it all.
Another expense is the ABC bodies and the templates. Why do we have to fit templates? I can understand making the cars look nice, but if your nose is 1" wide or short, you get a hard time over it, if your roof is 1" high or low you fail tech. How much of an aero advantage are we getting at New Smyrna, Showtime or Auburndale when they decide to drag out the referee and tech the whole body? To me it is simply a waste of time and when some teams hear that the track is doing tech on bodies they just leave the cars on jackstands.
[QUOTE=exnyer;165383]Phil is pretty much on spot with the explination of the bumps.
With the bumps, you run a soft spring, the coil spring just holds the car up while sitting it does nothing on the track, then when you enter the corner, the spring is irrevelant, the shock sits on the bumps and the tires becomes the spring, (increasing tire temps and wear).
Now it does not matter if you run rubber bump stops or flat washers the load gets transfered to the tire, there is a fine line with your load numbers also, shock travel and how far on the bump stop, then if you are traveling to much on the bump stop you have to either put in packers to pick the nose up because you are bottoming out on the track and hitting the crossmember, the footbox or the rack or the car is not turning and you have to take packers out.
There is so much involved in setting up the bumpstops, testing them, getting the wheel load numbers and all of the tinkering at the track the regular saturday night team cannot keep up with it or simply afford everything that is needed to just get bumps on the car, you really need a full time crew to work with it all.
Another expense is the ABC bodies and the templates. Why do we have to fit templates? I can understand making the cars look nice, but if your nose is 1" wide or short, you get a hard time over it, if your roof is 1" high or low you fail tech. How much of an aero advantage are we getting at New Smyrna, Showtime or Auburndale when they decide to drag out the referee and tech the whole body? To me it is simply a waste of time and when some teams hear that the track is doing tech on bodies they just leave the cars on jackstands.[/QUOTE]
Exnyer, you took the words out of my mouth. I have a good friend here in St. Augustine who has run their own Xfinity team, and he offered to help me set up my SLM with bump stops. He explained to me that when they are right, it is real quick, but when they are wrong, they are wrong. When he explained the testing and expense that would be involved, I said no thanks. I don’t understand why any local track or small series would ever consider allowing it. Same goes for the ABC body rules. I don’t care what anyone says, aero isn’t that big a deal on a half mile or shorter. Give some general dimensions for the body, and let’s race. The ABC rule was one of the biggest reasons I sold my super.
[QUOTE=Groundpounder;165351]and your point is???
Where have tracks jumped on board for “high dollar parts”?
How many Daddy’s are there at each venue? What would YOU do with them?
Racing has ALWAYS been the haves and have nots.[/QUOTE]
Last comment on this as it is merely becoming an argument where our thought and opinions differ.
3 tracks-2 states (no i will not name them) giving you that is probably too much and just enough to make you change your argument to I have no merit because i won’t tell you.
Daddy(s) renting the track every Wednesday, buying 15 sets of tires and 150 gallons of fuel to test their new (high dollar parts) so jr can play (learn). then when they like the new parts they get them written into the rules. tracks HAVE jumped on board with daddy money.
What would i do with the rich daddies? Make them leash Jr a little better and stop influencing the rules.
I fully agree, racing is supposed to be fun and a hobby, it has turned into a mortgage payment. There should be simple rules, a motor rule, body rule, weight and left side, then lets go!
Also with the mandatory tire and fuel purchase, all that does is keep teams home, if teams want to soak, let them… just have a durometer rule and tell them, you can soak your tires until they are mush but they better meet this number when I check them. Some guys can get 2 nights out of a set of tires by soaking them and save money which allows them to race more and build up the car counts.
Benny, as far as kids using daddy’s money that has and always will be a problem, unfortunally I do not see this changing in the near future, as the old saying goes, money talks! There have been some kids out there running cars at daddy’s expense junking everyone else’s cars and daddy will just keep paying to fix the cars and go back to repeat the cycle meanwhile the kid could not drive a hot nail thru a snowman’s ass.
Until the track owners lose the attitude of we have to be like nascar things will not change.