Crate Late Models

Heard one of our tracks may start a Crate Late Model class, 602 sealed crate motor with a shock rule, SLM rules apply otherwise, hopefully may have a weight rule for stock clip cars if needed, what’s your thoughts?

I like the idea o the 602 crate engine. However, the main thing keeping me from considering a late model again is the ABC body rule.

I’m curious, isn’t this what Pro Late Models are- and If not then what is the difference between Super and Pro Late Models?

And when you get right down to it aren’t the Sportsman essentially just Pro Late Models with Outlaw bodies on them running skinny tires?

Cheers :ernaehrung004:

“And when you get right down to it aren’t the Sportsman essentially just Pro Late Models with Outlaw bodies on them running skinny tires?”

Pretty close.

I believe that the crate-late concept would be too close to a Sportsman car–and too close to existing late models-- to be viable.

Have to be careful here, we don’t need 3 classes with 4 cars instead of 2 classes with 6.

That said–although they are not cheap per se, Sportsman cars are cheaper than late models, and typically have correspondingly large fields.

“Crate-late” sounds cool, though…

Another variation–put 10" tires on the Sportsman cars (with crate motors) and call them “Outlaw late models”. BUT if they better “stick” the cars, then the “haves” will be even mo faster than the “have-nots”–who will be more inclined to stay home.

I like the outlaw bodies and would like to see a outlaw late model class, you could do it with the current Sportsman cars on 10in tires, since these are mostly stock clip cars with coil springs, add the SLM cars with a 602 crate motor and a cheaper shock package (no bump stops) and add weight to the supers or lower the weight on the Sportsman type cars to help even out the field, not sure how lite you can get a Sportsman too, maybe get the Sportsman cars to weigh 2750 and add weight to the supers, I believe the Pro lates are the same as the supers except they run a 604 crate motor which is $3,000 to $4,000 more than the 602, the shock package we currently run on the supers cost $800 to $1,500 a piece, other than tires the 2 most costly items for supers is the motor and shocks, of course the body isn’t cheap either compared to a Sportsman

I like this a lot. The ABC body rule is ridiculous. It just benefits Five Star. You get in a fender bender and spend hours lining the body up to fit the referee. outlaw body late models are cool looking, and cheap to build and fix.

Another class to further dilute the car counts… Yeah, that’s EXACTLY what FL needs… :rolleyes:

I agree with you about the car counts, Phil. However, I, like a lot of people believe there are folks who have late models sitting on blocks that they can’t afford to run based on current LM rules.

I see this a lot. People get in a division they can’t afford in the long run and their cars end up sitting because they are afraid to sell and take a loss or they are embarrassed to move backwards a division. I don’t think it’ll be any different. You may get a few cars but I think the real answer is to keep working on making the Sportsman divison better.

The proposed rules sound a lot like many of the things I keep hearing tossed around for the Sportsman class. I know this sounds good on paper but adding another division is NOT the proper answer. It’s been happening here lately and all it’s doing is spreading things too thin.

All the classes down here are expensive I?d like to see outlaw sportsman and outlaw late models lower the price on shocks clutches etc. and aluminum bodies crate motors and 10 inch wheels and tires on the outlaw late models

Racing is expensive and creating too many similar divisions becomes expensive in the long run. What happens when this proposed division fails after 1 season and there are 9 guys who built or changed cars specifically for this and then can’t do anything with those cars.

Stop the silliness. Focus on the healthy divisions and build off those. If the tracks down there actually cared about ALL competitors, they would come together to make the rules as close as possible, affordably interchange and affordable overall. This nonsense of 6 divisons of the same car just different enough to cost a good chunk of change to swap over is what’s hurting the sport as a whole.

Quality not quantity people. Quality of divisions not quantity.

I (and many others) would rather sit through a 4 divison racing card with 15 to 20 cars each instead of 8 division race card with 5 to 10 cars each.

It goes right back to the formula I’ve been preaching for years here. Car counts and good racing bring fans, when there are fans, sponsors want to advertise, when sponsors want to advertise, purses can increase, when purses increase, car counts generally grow and repeat…

Preach it Phil. How about the ones who want this start by putting together a sportsman then if/when they start this new car count thinner you’ll already be most of the way there.

maybe one way as not to increase car classes is leave the SLM rules like they are but run 10in tires on Sportsman cars and allow SLM chassis cars with the 602 crate motor and lower cost shock package, no bump stops and a weight penalty, that way you can have an outlaw body SLM as a Sportsman, that wouldn’t cause a big cost change in the Sportsman class but allow other tube frame cars to the class, may lower the weight on the Sportsman as well to round out the competitiveness of the class, just another idea

The sportsman division is the single strongest division in the state right now and finally seems to be heading towards a fairly unified set of rules for the most part with the recent Showtime/Auburndale announcement. Why not focus on making the division for which the cars are just sitting on jack stands, a little more reasonable (across the entire country)… Don’t fix what isn’t broken… It’s common sense here.

I believe you have the right idea, Phil. Costs to run late models are insane. Quick funny story. I was talking to a competitor in the SCCA Trans Am pro series. I asked if they allowed bump stops. He said they used to, but Ricky Brooks, the Tech man for the series, took them away. He said he asked Ricky why, and he said they escalate the costs too much. He said he is against them in late models as well for the same reason, but has too much opposition.

NAILED IT!!! Bump stop and coil bind setups need to be outlawed. On top of escalating costs they don’t make the racing any better cause cars are so on edge with those setups guys are not willing to race side by side. Do that and implement a spec sealed shock and that’s a huge cost savings. But then you got everyone bitching about spending the money to go back and to that I say this… you have no problem spending the money to chase the bumps, in the long run eliminating them will save money and same with the shocks. Another thing would be a tire rule. Operating on a 3 week pattern. 4 tires this week, 2 the week after and 2 more after that and then you can buy 4 again but you’re only allowed to hold 8 tires in your weekly inventory. But that would require the tracks to put forth effort to maintain and police the system. Works well at Stafford here.

I haven’t found anything Phil has said that I can disagree with.

But, y’know, the night is young…

yeah I would agree the Sportsman are good where they are, it would be nice if we could reduce the the costs some how on the SLMs, the shocks and bumps would be a good start, maybe another idea for the 602 crate late models is include them with the SLMs by lowering minimum weight to be competitive, back when Bobby Diehl ran our Punta Gorda track we ran crate late models, limited late models and supers together with weight difference and we were averaging over 20 cars for each race and the racing was very competitive, adding or reducing weight may be the least inexpensive way to get bigger car counts with what we have now

You’re only going to get those cars so light and I really don’t think it’s going to make a difference.

If you can’t afford to run an SLM, sell it and cut your losses. It’s that simple. There is a “ladder system” that nobody seems to use anymore. Everyone wants to run a SLM but nobody want’s to spend the money so they want it to be cheaper and cheaper. Got news for you, it’s the top tier of fendered short track car in the nation. No matter what you do with spec shocks, bump stops etc it’s still going to be expensive. If you want to run a 602 crate car, sell your SLM and put together a sportsman.

Half the problem with people having cars on stands at home and not going to the track is people get in over their head financially and when they realize they can’t afford it they blame everyone and everything else. Look in the mirror and realize ya dun messed up lol

If you want bigger car counts, combine the PLM and SLM at every track. Some people will bitch that there will be a difference in straightaway speed etc but remember, the sportsman also have built motors and crate motors and there isn’t a huge issue there with incidents caused by closing rates.

Start at ground zero. Combine the SLM and PLM straight up as their current rules packages stand and then from there, an intelligent tech man such as Ricky Brooks can find ways to keep the competition close.

I have seen 600hp SLM’s run with 450-500hp PLM’s… They do it up here a lot with PASS cars integrating into local Pro Stock divisions and series. On the smaller tracks, the difference is minimal with the correct tire. You can only use what you can put to the ground. Tire is the great equalizer :ernaehrung004:

My crystal ball say:

>Sportsman will be the top weekly class. Probably will be re-named “Late Model Sportsman”.

>SLM will be touring only (due to the expense) and will not be the top rung, but the bottom rung for folks-with-plenty-of-backing that have Cup aspirations.

>Eventually, modified car count will drop due to expense, the class will go away, and then re-emerge as a crate or claimer class.

>Similarly, there will be one class of V8 bombers (let’s call 'em “Bone-y Bombers”), and one class of import bombers.

You heard it here on KARNAC first.