Question for the Sportsman guys.. Built vs Crate?

FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING KARNAC's FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING
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Curious if engine choice is just a matter of preference for you guys or if the 602 with the 4bbl is the hot ticket these days. The engine’s we run up here in the Limited Sportsman division are literally a cam change away from being “competitive” on paper with what you guys have down there. Just trying to plan ahead a little bit. I plan on bringing 2 cars to the party so I wasn’t sure if I should go crate on the second one or just build a twin to my current one.

PM me if you want to keep info private or whatever or post here

Thanks Guys! :ernaehrung004:

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It looks like the crate motor thing is only killing off racing even faster. It’s eliminating local speedshops, it’s eliminating engine builders and machine shops, and it’s making racing totally dependent on three manufacturers ( well…two really because the mopar program doesn’t seem very big ) that might very well decide that their investment isn’t really paying off and decide to drop their crate motor program. Then what?
I’d say you should build your own engine instead of investing in a crate motor.

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[QUOTE=Matt Albee;150999]It looks like the crate motor thing is only killing off racing even faster. It’s eliminating local speedshops, it’s eliminating engine builders and machine shops, and it’s making racing totally dependent on three manufacturers ( well…two really because the mopar program doesn’t seem very big ) that might very well decide that their investment isn’t really paying off and decide to drop their crate motor program. Then what?
I’d say you should build your own engine instead of investing in a crate motor.[/QUOTE]

My built motors make good power. I trust my engine guy up here can make comparable power to the big names down there and I have local resources down there also to keep the built engine fresh and running strong as I need to so I would almost prefer it, but from a budget aspect (which will surely come into play as I know I likely won’t make the cake I am here, down there) the Crate engine has always intrigued me because they don’t need to be freshened yearly which does keep cost down. The 602 can be competitive for 3+ years if properly maintained before it needs a refresh.

Budget aside, I am really curious mostly because I want to know if they are on equal ground in terms of being competitive or if one or the other has an advantage. Obviously it comes down to a lot more than just motor, but being as I plan to run mostly Desoto and NSS since they will be easiest access for where in FL I will be, it sure doesn’t hurt to have a car that handles well down the straightaways if you catch my drift lol!

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Ask this question??

What are the guys changing in the crate motors? Timing chains? Rockers? Is it necessary to do work to a brand new Crate motor to be competitive or durable ?

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Shouldn’t have to do anything. The rule book reads “Chevy 602 will be teched 100% by the GM Tech Manual” but I have heard tech is not exactly thorough down there… I wouldn’t be shocked to find out guys are playing around with the crate engines. I know there are parts available. Personally that’s not my style.

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Not my style either

I agree with Matt on this one…I’m curious to hear some reply’s

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People won’t reply. They hate me :aetsch013::ernaehrung004:

Seriously though. I don’t disagree with what Matt said at all. I don’t like Crate Engines honestly. But I want to be competitive. But if I can’t be competitive legally with a crate engine, I won’t even bother looking at one. The part that got me interested like I said was their longevity without a $2000 refresh yearly.

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Crate

I have run completely stock crate engines in all my sportsmans, super stocks, and Emod. You do not have to cheat them up to win. The built motors seem to be able to run with the crates now verses the previous yrs and I’m not sure why but either way it all just up to cost for the racer. I ran built motors for awhile then when it blew up, to build a motor to run up front would cost 6-7000 and the crate was 3100 shipped to the door. I ran 23 races in my sportsman car and won 16 and never did a thing but change oil. Everyone says you can’t do it , you have to change valve springs every 6 races is full of crap. I think it’s all up to your preference on how much you want to spend to win.

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I am a crate motor guy, if I had unlimited money I would also have an open motor. I don’t have that kind of funds. The crate motor is $3,100 delivered to my door. There are places you are allowed to change the timing chain, most you cannot. You used to be allowed to change the valve springs to an aftermarket replacement spring, but I think that has now changed. You are allowed to change the oil pan at most places, the one track that hasn’t allowed you to do that, says they will allow it next year, they will be making you have a 7" sump like the other tracks. Other than those few things nothing else has ever been legal for you to change on your 602 crate motor.

I had a good open motor before I bought my first crate motor. It ran 17 races, cost me $6,500 and needed to be freshened after every season.

I have had 4 different crate motors, the first I ran 13 races, I then sold that complete motor after the race to one of my competitors who thought it must be a good one so they wanted it.

I bought the next motor the next Monday morning, I ran that motor 17 races, and then sold the car.

I bought my next car 2 years later, it had a crate motor in it, which was in need of a rebuild, the guy that owned it had no idea how old it was.

I bought the motor I have now January 1 2012, it has 18 races on it now, stock timing chain still seems to be plenty tight, judging by the timing light. I have changed the valve springs 3 times and changed the oil regularly. This motor has won 11 of those 18 races and just seems to be getting stronger. There is no sign of this motor needing to be rebuilt anytime soon.

If you don’t turn these crate motors too many Rpm’s they will last for a long time.

I am never the fastest car down the straightaway with the crate motor, but I have long heard the race is won in the corners. The best thing about the crate motor is that you can drive the car and not spin the tires off the corners.

Patrick Thomas 25

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Thanks Patrick and Justin, I appreciate the great detailed info and the time you took to write it.

I have two cars… One is a G car that runs as a Limited Sportsman here (similar to your sportsman except we run 7" treaded with an open 7.5 rear, .405/.410 cam and a few other subtle differences, and the other one is a tube car that I am slowly building specifically for Florida as money allows. I thought about just selling the G car up here before I come, but I may just keep it as a bullring car or backup. Either way, I want to have something strong and competitive in whatever I end up driving. Like I said, I will mostly be running Desoto and NSS so I figured straight line power would be a big help at NSS vs Desoto but wasn’t sure what was the preferred power down there. Maybe I will give this crate engine deal a shot… $3100 is definitely cheaper than the $7500 I have in my built motor.

The info is much appreciated guys! :ernaehrung004:

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I will say it again the open motor on soft new tires will be faster than the crate, until those soft tires get hot and then the crate motor picks up the advantage.
Your car has to get through the corner well to be fast with a crate motor.

My crate motor is always for sale for the price of a new one in a crate, if anybody is interested.

Patrick Thomas 25

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I agree with Matt too. It kills local engine shops business and speed shops. So what they do is raise their prices to offset what they lost. At one time building your engine was part of racing. Gives you a little more satisfaction in knowing that you built the engine that just won the race. Yes Crates are a lot cheaper, but the satisfaction isn’t there. Plus you support your local engine builder/machine shop and help keep food on his family’s table and his doors open. I have many offers to run a Crate engine and turned it down. Plus how come like in the Pro Late Model class you buy a “Crate” (604) for what like $5500 or whatever they cost, and send it directly to a engine builder and for another $5-6000 dollars they can make it competitive. Now you have over $10,000 plus in that Stock “Crate” engine. What do they change for that additional money? And similar things happen in the 602 and 603’s also. If you have a good “Built” engine it should not blow up. BTW Justin, if you run that “Crate” engine all that time, you must have got some very special valve springs. I had someone ask me to check some stock 602 valve springs (6 sets) for their 602 and replaced them with what GM calls for and were only run 4 race nights. They were 92-95 lbs seat pressure new and that is within spec according to GM. The strongest one was 72lbs. The lowest one was 45lbs seat pressure. The others varied between 58 to 65 lbs seat pressure. He said that the car (RPM) would slowly fall off and the performance difference he could feel drop too. So do the math. 6 sets at around $100 a set = $600. I can put a set of real springs on and run all season for around $450. If there is a Crate engine in any of my cars it won’t be of any of my doings!

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Dd38

Say what you want to david. I know for a fact they were stock springs on the motor the whole time. Ask Jared if you don’t believe me pretty sure he would tell you. I could care less about winning with a crate or built motor. I only care that I won and it doesn’t matter which motor I won with which I won when I had a built motor and nothing changed when I switched, still winning races. I ran at auburndale and they checked my springs and they had only dropped like 8 lbs and I had like 18 races on them at that point. As far as the 604 the guy didn’t ask about them. But for a fact you have to do all that work to hang with the limited spec. The make like 525 hp or so. The crate makes 450 or so and it’s the engine builders fault anyways cuz they wanted to do all the work to the crates so they had work.

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You can buy the valve springs right from the GM parts counter for $35.00 a set all day long.
GM part number# 19154761

As often as you race Dave, the crate motor would last you a lifetime. Sorry Dave I had too.

Patrick Thomas 25

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I

I wanted to say that Patrick but I know he would get butt hurt over it. They are cheap and easy to do. I just didn’t see changing them if they weren’t that far off and I didn’t notice a differance in power. I ran a crate last yr 12 races and the valve springs are fine on it. I got a new one this yr and have like 7 races on it. It’s just about maintance and know what your doing and these crates will last seasons.

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This thread is right on time, I’ve been wondering about this.

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All the guys with crate motors say they go much longer between rebuilds. I have trouble believing that. Why would that be? A competent engine builder can clearance an engine just as well as the crate motor assembly line at GM and Ford. Does the race engine builder use parts and pieces that aren’t as good a quality as the crates? I don’t know why that would be the case.

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I come up with something intelligent once in a while, right? :huepfen024::huepfen024:

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Well I know with the Crate Motors here, they all run about 6200rpm. My built motor turns 7200… 1000rpm doesnt seem like a lot to some, but it really can make or break an engine and definitely means a ton in terms of longevity. The Late Model I work on has almost 50 races on the 603 in it, and was still running top 3 competitive on a weekly basis before the car got destroyed 2 weeks ago. So there is definitely a lot of truth to the longevity.

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The difference in RPM’s is part of it, you only turn the crate motor 6,100 to 6,300 Rpm’s. The built motor guys turn the motors way more Rpm’s.

Also the engine builders use the lightest, smallest parts money can buy for a good motor. Small, light parts wear faster than the heavy factory stuff that is being built by GM, in the crates.

I am not talking about the 604 chevy or the 347 ford pro late model motors, I have no knowledge of those motors whatsoever. I am only talking about my knowledge of the GM 602 sportsman motor.

Patrick Thomas 25