Question for the Sportsman guys.. Built vs Crate?

FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING KARNAC's FLORIDA STOCK CAR RACING
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I don’t race as much as I once did because #1 main reason is I have some personal issues that don’t concern any of you and don’t have any business needing to know.

#2 is not the engine cost. It is what it costs to run the car. It would be the same with any engine. Remember also I am the only one that supports my car. I don’t have any family members that help let alone any Sponsors. Plus like I said before I prefer to spend my money locally and keeping someone in business.

#3 I also have found other things I like to do as go spend time in my house in Tennessee (not racing has afforded me this luxury) away from this Hell Hole called Florida.

Racing is not a priority for me any more. I could take it or leave it. Anybody that knows me from the late 70’s on know how much I raced back then. If the lights were on and the gates were open I was there. You all were just a thought in somebody’s mind back then. Go ask Buzzy how much I raced then. It’s just not a priority anymore. So don’t criticize me unless you know the facts!

P.S. Patrick, What ever happened to the Bump Steer Gauge?

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I live in PCola and have been eyeing possibly getting back into the seat at some point. Their Sportsmen (and Mobile), which are one class below regular Florida Sportsman and are more like Street Stocks, run the 602 or a built motor. 602’s have to run the MSD Soft Touch 6200 chip. Both built and Crate Motors have to run a 456 gear. They also can’t buy more than two tires at a time and two tires are impounded after every race. They have a pretty strong field of cars every week but I have no idea how many guys run the crate but if you guys are running them competitively I’d imagine they’d be competitive here. BTW if you look at 5 Flags rules Florida Sportsman are called Super Stock. I don’t know what the rules are for Super Stock (your sportsman) but the car count has been disappointing all year.

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A tire rule is a necessity for all divisions regardless of what anyone says… It helps keep the costs down for the budget teams which is part of what Scott was trying to do with the Hoosier 800 deal. Tires and Fuel are a race teams two biggest weekly expenses. Sportsman class and lower should run nothing but 93 octane MAX and have a 4-2-2 (or similar) tire rule… Simple way to bring back a ton of parked cars right there, but that’s a different discussion so I won’t get off track.

The Super Stock you speak of sounds a lot like my Limited Sportsman… We run 88 Monte bodies up here. I will likely keep that car with an 88 monte body when it comes down, but it’s so far ahead of a NSS Super Stock it’s not even funny. Would be easier for me to just change the cam and put a 3 link with 9" in and make it a sportsman than to convert it down to a Super Stock lol

I think the closest thing I see up here to the Sportsman engine package down there seems to be Seekonk Speedway where half the field has 602 and half the field has built engines…

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Lurkin, we were at the last Blizzard race helping David Rogers, talked to Ricky Brooks several times about running my 602 crate sportsman in the Derby. He came up with a reasonable weight break for my car, and we are planning on running the derby for the super stocks with my car. Hopefully being down 60 plus horsepower, will be able to be overcome by less weight. We will see in December. Look me up derby week, will be crewing for David Rogers in the super, and Brad May in the pros.

Patrick Thomas 25

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A friend of mine bought a 602 and raced it 36 times with several wins up at Columbia Motorsports. He changed the oil every few races or three and never even pulled a valve cover! He’s lazy that way.
Was still running strong and had good compression when I sold it for him.

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Will do Patrick, hope you get to run.

Phil, Super Stock over here is actually above Sportsman down there. Dave Mader told me his is an old Southern All Stars Late Model. It kind of bums me out because the diversity of the class is going away and it’s turning into just another ABC class :confused:

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hey DD38

Come on Rabbit, you know that you are just getting TOO OLD FOR THIS ANYMORE, and thats why you dont show up much now!:)[UOTE=dd38;151026]I don’t race as much as I once did because #1 main reason is I have some personal issues that don’t concern any of you and don’t have any business needing to know.

#2 is not the engine cost. It is what it costs to run the car. It would be the same with any engine. Remember also I am the only one that supports my car. I don’t have any family members that help let alone any Sponsors. Plus like I said before I prefer to spend my money locally and keeping someone in business.

#3 I also have found other things I like to do as go spend time in my house in Tennessee (not racing has afforded me this luxury) away from this Hell Hole called Florida.

Racing is not a priority for me any more. I could take it or leave it. Anybody that knows me from the late 70’s on know how much I raced back then. If the lights were on and the gates were open I was there. You all were just a thought in somebody’s mind back then. Go ask Buzzy how much I raced then. It’s just not a priority anymore. So don’t criticize me unless you know the facts!

P.S. Patrick, What ever happened to the Bump Steer Gauge?[/QUOTE]

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All I did was state my own opinion and now I’m getting slammed. That’s what is wrong with this board. Gotta slam someone. Especially you Russ. You are right in one thing you said. I am too old is one of the reasons, being on the downside of 58. That’s why I have someone drive for me now and he has commitments. That is 1 reason I don’t run the car much. His commitments are priority #1. And if you all must know I have medical issues I’m dealing with and have been for several years. At least I am smart enough to step out of the car as to not put others in danger unlike most others! Been trying to run the thing since late August and it either rains or he has a commitment with someone. Then the jerk closes the track at Speed World to Stock Cars. So any suggestions? Where do you get this Rabbit shit from Russ?

P.S. I know you look at this all the time. So I’ll ask again. What happened to the Bump Steer gauge Patrick???

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It was returned to Buzzy in the big aluminum box, probably 10 years ago.

I’m not slamming you Dave, you just make yourself an easy target, because you are predictable. Your opinion is your opinion, I feel your opinion has no merit, you and most people paying crazy high prices for built motors when the option to run a more affordable motor package that gets the job done. That is the option I choose to run.

Patrick Thomas 25

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apples & oranges?

Phil asked a question of the Sportsman Guys. Obviously I am not one of them. But here might be some things to ponder for Phil and those who are.

Seems to me it is an “apples and oranges” discussion.

Crate motors are “best” for those on a budget. No doubt.

But as a spectator, who doesn’t want to hear the crisp ring of that extra RPM?

As a competitor–you are always looking for the mechanical edge. Traditionally, the first place to look is under the hood.

As a competitor, who doesn’t want the ability to out-accelerate someone coming off a corner? Who doesn’t want more RPM?

If you had a car owner with deep pockets, and he asked your choice-any choice, am guessing that choice would be a built motor.

Possibly a $10k motor, if it is faster and he can afford it.

Which brings us full circle, money reduces fields and then they dissapear altogether.

Apples and oranges…

A possible solution: Limit the parts and pieces in a “built” motor to approximate a crate motor, and maybe open the cam choice up for crate motors.

That way, it may be cheaper to buy a crate and change the cam than pay for a built motor, and home builders may be able to save a little over even a crate.

Downsides(there almost always are some…)–the current built motor guys need a new motor, and engine builders need to figure out how to make money at a lower price point.

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ps–dd38 & xracer, am wishing you the best with your issues, and it is good that you still get to race a little here and there.

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[QUOTE=OldSchool+;151040]Phil asked a question of the Sportsman Guys. Obviously I am not one of them. But here might be some things to ponder for Phil and those who are.

Seems to me it is an “apples and oranges” discussion.

Crate motors are “best” for those on a budget. No doubt.

But as a spectator, who doesn’t want to hear the crisp ring of that extra RPM?

As a competitor–you are always looking for the mechanical edge. Traditionally, the first place to look is under the hood.

As a competitor, who doesn’t want the ability to out-accelerate someone coming off a corner? Who doesn’t want more RPM?

If you had a car owner with deep pockets, and he asked your choice-any choice, am guessing that choice would be a built motor.

Possibly a $10k motor, if it is faster and he can afford it.

Which brings us full circle, money reduces fields and then they dissapear altogether.

Apples and oranges…

A possible solution: Limit the parts and pieces in a “built” motor to approximate a crate motor, and maybe open the cam choice up for crate motors.

That way, it may be cheaper to buy a crate and change the cam than pay for a built motor, and home builders may be able to save a little over even a crate.

Downsides(there almost always are some…)–the current built motor guys need a new motor, and engine builders need to figure out how to make money at a lower price point.[/QUOTE]

When i think back to the early years of stock car racing, i know that the guys with the most money were always winning. But the car counts were always off the charts. So it looks like competing was far more important than racing cheaply.
If you limit the parts and pieces, you end up with a crate motor. From what i’ve read and heard, the engine builders and machine shops haven’t exactly been getting rich off of building race engines. I think their price point was already about as reasonable as it could get. But GM and Ford don’t have to work off of the same profit margin as the local shops because they’re selling thousands or hundreds of thousands of engines.

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Crate. Not even close. We used to have wooden wheels on our buggys and candles for light and then better stuff came along and the wheel and candle makers had to either keep up with the new/better tech or go hungry.

If you’re so worried about engine builders going out of business, just send them money. But don’t legislate the rest of us to do it as well.

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[QUOTE=sbracer58;151045]Crate. Not even close. We used to have wooden wheels on our buggys and candles for light and then better stuff came along and the wheel and candle makers had to either keep up with the new/better tech or go hungry.

If you’re so worried about engine builders going out of business, just send them money. But don’t legislate the rest of us to do it as well.[/QUOTE]

I see you don’t subscribe to the " big picture " view of racing. Everyone should be worried about the engine builders, speed shops, and machine shops going under. I actually do support the local shops over mail order speed equipment and machining.

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I built a Sportsman a couple years ago. I chose to go the “built” route because the parts car I purchased had a “running” engine… Turned out that engine was a hunk of S and was basically on it’s last leg, which is fine that’s the risk in buying anything used.

When it was all said and done I had about 7k in updating and rebuilding that engine. Most of that expense was parts, I have zero issues with the labor costs. However, if I had to do it all over again I would’ve just bought the crate engine to begin with. Cheaper to run, cheaper to maintain, and in my opinion, I’ll trade some horsepower if it means reliability thus letting me focus more on chassis and handling.

Crate Motors may have hurt a few engine builders but they have helped just as many. I know quite a few that have transformed “blueprinting” these engines into a large part of their business model, in addition to selling “crate” headers, carbs, pumps, pulleys etc. which is a whole other issue.

I’m sorry but it’s not the racers job to spend more to keep engine builders in business. Most of the rising costs in their field are due to the actual parts and the equipment they use. Rule makers also haven’t done them any favors. I feel bad for them, it’s a very tough industry.

Unless you’re still wearing shoes that can be resoled just so the shoe guy can stay open or your still watching your 1980 Tube TV just so the local repair man can keep his shop open, you really don’t have that argument.

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Thankfully i do have that argument. I’ve got a pair of boots that the local shoe shop has re-soled twice for me.
The argument isn’t actually whether or not the engine builders, speed shops, and machine shops should be able to stay in business. The argument is whether or not the crate motor has put a lot of those guys out of business while lining the pockets of GM and Ford. The answer to that question is yes. As long as the crate motor isn’t " legislated " in, racers will still have an option. And i hope the racer chooses to build their own or have one built by a local shop. I also hope the rules maker don’t handicap the built engines just so the crates can keep up. If the crates can’t keep up, then make em faster.

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“I’m sorry but it’s not the racers job to spend more to keep engine builders in business.”–Mike B

Agreed, nor the tracks, nor the tire vendors, nor the hot dog stand.

Come up with a better mousetrap (pun intended) and they will come. Or at least that is both the way it used to work and they way to the best product.

But this is a different deal. Legislate crate motors only, and, well, I am going to Yoho’s Modified deal in November (at a considerable distance), this weekend the e-mods (crate) are much closer, and I may go, but am not nearly as motivated. So, exclusively legislating a crate engine may hurt attendance. On the other hand, exclusive built-motors may limit car count, which then may limit attendance. Mix them, and run a weight break, and one bunch or the other (and possibly both) will feel slighted, and on and on…

But, as mentioned, make sure they are all inexpensive, open up the camshaft, and if they go boom once in a while, well, they were affordable.

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Any Performance Engine Builder whose dependent on street stock or sportsman level engines never really had a good business plan to begin with. Most of the smart ones focus more on Classic Cars, Hot Rods, V8 Boats and such as their core business and will do the short track stuff more as a hobby. They all love seeing their engines win, but imagine having a guy drop you off a box of parts and expecting you to build him something fast that will last 10,000 laps at over 7000 rpms? And when it doesn’t, do you think people know the customer brought you junk to begin with? Or do you think the bigger (and wrong) message that gets out is that Joe Bob the Builder just had another engine grenade? So for that reason, the “good” builders will make you start with all new stuff because it’s their reputation on the line, thus the reason why building a quality motor is so expensive.

Word of engines breaking spread like wild fire. Before you know it that builder who was doing someone a favor by building something “cheap” can’t get anyone to bring him anything anymore… Damn those Crate Engines!!!

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Crate Engines should NEVER be the sole engine provided for a division. NEVER That is what ruins racing… ACT Late Models, while I crew cheif two of them, are the most pathetic excuse for a division. Where is the personality? Sure, it makes it more about the driver but isn’t racing supposed to be the whole package? Car + Driver? In my eyes, yes… It is.

This discussion has gotten WAY off course of the original question but I do appreciate those who chimed in to my original question. Unless something productive or intriguing comes again, this will be my last post of this thread.

Crate Engines should only ever be an option to racers. They are a great option for those on a budget which most of you in FL seem to be. I myself, am on a budget but happen to have an engine shop here that takes care of me. My new engine will be able to compete with the rest of the guys spending twice what I am. A lot of the price of engines from engine builders is inflated labor costs which in my eyes is complete crap and I kind of believe the engine builders are hurting themselves a lot of times by over charging and being greedy which has pushed more and more drivers to go with the less expensive crate engine.

My sole purpose for the question as I stated was because I intend on having two cars but regardless of if I have that 2nd car or not, I would like to definitely have a backup engine and would rather not break the bank on something that might not be used every week. I would likely keep the built engine for a main engine because like I said, the plan is to run the high banks of NSS and getting down the straights is just as key there as getting through the corners but I wanted to know that if I were to have to change an engine due to an issue, if I got a crate or had the crate in a secondary car, it would still be competitive.

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Imagine if these Speed Shops that have “gone out of business” had said - “yes sir you’re right, the crate is a cheaper option. But you’ll want the right distributer, carb, headers and I’ve even got a pulley system that will save you 8hp!! I’ll tell you what, I can order it for you from GM and you can get all these other parts right through me. For an extra $500 I’ll put all this stuff on it and break it in on my run stand. You’ll be able to pick it up from me at the end of the week, drop it in and go racing!!!”

Now, whether they are good or not for racing in general is a whole other argument. Just like Driod Vs Apple. Individuals have needs that may or may not be met by one product or the other.