"[Can you imagine] owning 5 different chassis with 15 different motor combos…[?]–RB
Great point!
How many sets of rules are there for Cup engines?
I know they change frequently, but can you imagine the Toyoter (or Dodge, or whatever) motors just having a wax seal on them and NASCAR deems them “legal”?
Tony Stewart would literally have a cow on the spot.
How about one set of Rules? If they are too expensive-- change them.
I also do not have a race car, but (IMO) all input should be considered to be possibly helpful, and can easily be discarded if irrelevant.
[QUOTE=RowdyBloomquist;156842]Matt you must not be too familiar with today’s SLM racing and its rules. Steve and Brian from Progressive started building these motors years ago before Ricky Brooks became so prominent. Side note: he is probably the best tech man the sport has seen in a long time. Strict but fair. But this really has nothing to do with him.
There is a parts list that the builders for these motors have… The reason only a few are allowed to build them, is to try and keep a level playing field. Like you said, you can put whatever you want in them…That goes for any class, any engine, any state. That’s what tech and protests are for. With the SPEC’s, if an engine is in question by racers or tech man, they can have it opened up for inspection. Which has happened a couple of times. You have 3 options to buy a “Florida Spec” motor. Progressive, Crume, or Cope. If you don’t want one of those, choose the SSPE engine which ANYONE can build. If you don’t like that, choose the 9:1, if you don’t like that, choose the flat top steel head motor…if you don’t like that, go play iracing…
Just a question for you Matt, do you own a race car or race? I see you are quite prominent on this board, but I have never met you at the track (and I’ve been everywhere and know a lot of people.) If not, why concern yourself with this debate.
Eric Purcell[/QUOTE]
The " you can’t possibly know what we racers know " routine has been run up the flagpole many times before Eric. It has just as little to do with this thread as any other thread. But as you haven’t been paying attention…no, i don’t currently own, drive, work on, or sponsor a race car. I also don’t own or work at a race track. I’m going to go ahead and concern myself with this debate whether it suits you or not.
Yes, we did meet at a track a couple of years ago.
It looks like we’re right back to the beginning. Only a very small handful of engine builders are allowed to build the super secret SPEC engine. That doesn’t level the playing field at all, it just gives the many engine builders who aren’t included far less money in their pockets and far less customers.
Now if i read your post correctly, even though the average racer has no idea what parts are included in the SPEC engines, he can protest another racer using a SPEC engine, and that racer might be illegal, but only the tech guy would know. Well, makes perfectly good sense.
Not only that, you say the entire Florida short track community has adopted the rule book from 5 Flags. That’s the track that makes most of it’s racers buy gas and tires from the track. Yet every track has it’s own rule book. Go figure.
The band keeps playing as the ship sinks.
Universal rules ( sensible ones, not secret ones ) are always a good idea. But there aren’t any, nor does it look like there will be anytime soon.
I agree, one motor would be nice, but they way the rules were when they implemented the SPEC motor was to include the motors that were already racing. So you didn’t have to drop another $15k on a motor just to race next year.
If you look at NASCAR, there are only a select few engine builders. Chevy has 2 or 3, Toyota 1 or 2, Dodge is gone… and Ford has 2 or 3. Florida SLM racers have a ton of different options. So I am unclear on why there is such a big fuss about it…???
This is the upper echelon of short track racing, the days of building a Late Model in your garage on jack stands and your buddy slapping together a small block 350 from the junk yard has been long gone. If you cannot afford a SPEC motor or to build the other SSPE option, or 9:1, then you need not be SLM racing. Build a Street Stock.
The reality has become, you are competing against guys that have 3-4 full time employees, show up in a NASCAR hauler, and unload 2-3 cars for a 100 lap $3000 to win race. A couple of the CRA/Southern Super Series teams I’ve talked with are spending over $500,000 a year to go Late model racing. It’s absurd. But that is what you are racing against. Plus you have all these cup guys with latemodel teams with rich kids driving their cars. I watched KBM’s crew chief at speedweeks walk out on the racetrack at New Smyrna with a lazer level a couple of times, then go to his computer, then change the spindles on the race car before even hitting the track…So a $17k motor is the least of Short Track SLM racing’s worries. Most of the big money guys have Ernie Elliot or Hamner 9:1’s that cost about $40k and make over 650hp.
The local guys are obvisouly not spending that much but you get the point. The SPEC and the SSPE motors are affordable options that can run with these motors for broke dick racers like myself try top compete with these boys. Hell, a good set of 4 shocks anymore is around $5k once you incorporate your bump stops and other hardware.
Matt, each track is going to have different rules about tires, fuel, entry fees etc… But the major rules as it applies to SLM racing, which that is what we are debating, are basically universal. The weight, the engine combos, the suspension… most others are minute differences. To stay on track with the SPEC motor, I agree everyone should know what is in them. That would be great. But the fact of the matter is, it will probably never be publicly displayed. You don’t have to buy a SPEC motor…the SSPE option is used just as much now if not more. Plus you have other sealed motor options with Hamner, Ford, and McGunnegil. I just really don’t see what the fuss is all about with the SPEC motor. It really is the LEAST of the problem with SLM racing. IMO
“I agree, one motor would be nice, but they way the rules were when they implemented the SPEC motor was to include the motors that were already racing. So you didn’t have to drop another $15k on a motor just to race next year.”–RB
Got that, and it was very reasonable at the time. It would also be reasonable if there were large areas running one or the other and then they could all get together for big races. How many of those original engines are still intact–and competitive? If the answer is “few”, then they could have been replaced with a single-engine formula along the way. Actually, it would be simple. Similar to the new tires coming on the scene, pare them down to two, and then one, set of rules. Two years tops.
“If you look at NASCAR, there are only a select few engine builders.”–RBII
Yep, but only one set of rules. In fact, the engines are designed to the rules these days, not the other way around. The “select few” engine builders are the best at maximizing the single set of rules.
Similarly, if there are two or ten SLM builders–if they are the best, and not just guaranteed an ongoing business due to exclusive rights, they will be the select few building engines to one set of rules.
I just don’t see how this cuts costs at all. If I want the “fastest” motor and I pay big bux and then am beat–particularly by the mystery SPEC motor, I am thinking I have to lay out another big wad o cash as opposed to fine tuning my existing stuff.
Rowdy is right…the Spec motor is there so MORE racers can be competitive, at least in the HP area…Anyone can build the SSPE, 9 to 1 or flat top motor if they choose. When it was introduced, I believe by ole Don, to be competitive in SLM you had to spend $35k to $40K on a motor to have a chance. A lot of the CUP technology was filtering down to short track racing and the HP had gotten to 600hp and even a little above. At the time there was some controversy on who could build the Spec motor and who couldn’t. But that is all irrelevant now. If I am not mistaken, (I am sure I will be corrected if I am), you could buy the spec motor out of someone else’s car for the cost of a new one if you thought it was cheated up or better than yours. Most racers loved it. You could get 600hp and a very reliable motor for 16K and, at the time, compete with the $35k motors. No one cared what was in it because it worked.
SLM racing is not for small budgets anymore…can you show up and ride around mid pack, of course you can but again, as Rowdy pointed out, you are racing against Cup technology. That is what has made most guys park or sell their cars. Not having to buy tires or fuel, or not knowing what is in a Spec motor.
Hey guys. From what I can remember the program started out as “S.E.A.L.”. “The Sealed. Engine. Alliance. Leader.”. I got a sticker from them with it on it. I don’t think it was Ricky Brooks that started it. From what I remember it was the guy that ran CRA. I think his name was R.J. Scott. McGunigul and Hamner I believe to be the first builders to joint the alliance back then.
I do not remember the motors to be de-tuned 400’s. I’m not sure about the Fords. But from what I remember about the Chevrolets, they were 350 blocks, stroker crank, high compression aluminum “?” heads, with the big 750cfm carburetor. I think they had about 25 more cubic inch on the 350ci
The 9 to 1 is just that. It’s a 350ci. low compression 9 to 1, small 390cfm carburetor. Put the two combos together they work out pretty equal.
Now I don’t think the Seal program specs are that big of a secret. I’m no engine guy but I have seen them before. I think I got a circle track magazine with most of the specs in it. I don’t think circle track magazine is top secret. When ASA had a sealed engine program the engine builders had to put up a $50,000 bond to join the program.
I’m not sure if that $ is the case with the program I mentioned above but that may be why Florida engine builders started their own “spec” engine program in Florida. I believe the parts list are the same thing for Florida builders as they are for the seal program builders. If not they are very close.
[QUOTE=mr south 59;156860]^^^Somebody has to much time on their hands. ^^^
Hey guys. From what I can remember the program started out as “S.E.A.L.”. “The Sealed. Engine. Alliance. Leader.”. I got a sticker from them with it on it. I don’t think it was Ricky Brooks that started it. From what I remember it was the guy that ran CRA. I think his name was R.J. Scott. McGunigul and Hamner I believe to be the first builders to joint the alliance back then.
I do not remember the motors to be de-tuned 400’s. I’m not sure about the Fords. But from what I remember about the Chevrolets, they were 350 blocks, stroker crank, high compression aluminum “?” heads, with the big 750cfm carburetor. I think they had about 25 more cubic inch on the 350ci
The 9 to 1 is just that. It’s a 350ci. low compression 9 to 1, small 390cfm carburetor. Put the two combos together they work out pretty equal.
Now I don’t think the Seal program specs are that big of a secret. I’m no engine guy but I have seen them before. I think I got a circle track magazine with most of the specs in it. I don’t think circle track magazine is top secret. When ASA had a sealed engine program the engine builders had to put up a $50,000 bond to join the program.
I’m not sure if that $ is the case with the program I mentioned above but that may be why Florida engine builders started their own “spec” engine program in Florida. I believe the parts list are the same thing for Florida builders as they are for the seal program builders. If not they are very close.[/QUOTE]
No wonder the fields are light. Let’s see, I have $15k I could pay down my mortgage with, but I want to build a new motor for my late model. What is the best choice?
I believe I would buy a Sportsman Crate motor and pay down $10k on the house.[/QUOTE]
So, what would you do with the other $1750.00??? Sportsman Crate from Jeg’s is $ 3250 delivered to your door.
[QUOTE=fred23;156857]Rowdy is right…the Spec motor is there so MORE racers can be competitive, at least in the HP area…Anyone can build the SSPE, 9 to 1 or flat top motor if they choose. When it was introduced, I believe by ole Don, to be competitive in SLM you had to spend $35k to $40K on a motor to have a chance. A lot of the CUP technology was filtering down to short track racing and the HP had gotten to 600hp and even a little above. At the time there was some controversy on who could build the Spec motor and who couldn’t. But that is all irrelevant now. If I am not mistaken, (I am sure I will be corrected if I am), you could buy the spec motor out of someone else’s car for the cost of a new one if you thought it was cheated up or better than yours. Most racers loved it. You could get 600hp and a very reliable motor for 16K and, at the time, compete with the $35k motors. No one cared what was in it because it worked.
SLM racing is not for small budgets anymore…can you show up and ride around mid pack, of course you can but again, as Rowdy pointed out, you are racing against Cup technology. That is what has made most guys park or sell their cars. Not having to buy tires or fuel, or not knowing what is in a Spec motor.[/QUOTE]
AMEN…
It seems most people are wrapping their minds around the wrong “problem.”
When you have thousands of dollars tied up in shocks and bump stops, a $6k transmission, and race against guys that have pull down rigs and wind tunnels, worrying about what is in a $17k spec motor is the least of the problem.
Unless you are going to New Smyrna or some other track 1/2 mile or larger, everyone is running restrictors anyway killing the HP. Huge HP motors aren’t as sought after as they used to be. I’ve seen plenty of crate motors outrun supers at places like Auburndale, Desoto, Hickory, Citrus etc…
“So break each cost down by engine and show ci hp tq”–Old Racer
“This is almost a ridulous request because there are waaayyyy too many variables with each combo other than the SPEC.”–Blooooooomquist
Is it?
I don’t know if Old Racer hit the lottery or inherited a bunch of coin, or is a lifelong racer moving up…But, assuming either he or a similar racer (Daddy Bigbux starting junior out to be a Cup Driver–he thinks–for instance) was wanting to get into the game, a Motor Decision will have to be made.
$$/Power seems like a reasonable question.
Of course, on the forum here, most of us don’t know the answer, engine builders will favor whichever one they are building, and competitors will steer you in the wrong direction…
It must be a pretty good program as far as engines because if you go on the CRA, PASS, Southern Super Series, etc web site they all have the exact same rules for engines. I do think you can make more and lighter power with the 9:1, but at 90% of the tracks where that 15-25hp difference doesn’t matter its not worth the extra $15-20K. That being said I think the only place you would really even know the difference is New Smyrna. At the snowball derby last year Chase Elliots’ record breaking qualifying time in his pro late for the snowflake would have qualified him 4th in the Derby. I think there are a few guys at New Smyrna with some pretty big HP, and I don’t think they are running spec motors.
OldSchool and Old Racer, here is your answer in a nut shell…
Back in 2000 PROGRESSIVE RACING ENGINES was approached and asked to build a reliable horsepower engine to compete with the high price of a Steel Head engine (about $35,000) and the 9:1 (about $40,000) and this was to be done for at least half the price.
We built the 374 C.I. with extensive R&D and time being put into this package. We placed this engine over a period of one year in four different cars. We rented Lakeland Speedway, ran 200 laps turning it at 8200 to see if there would be any failure and there was no failure. This engine was then put on a wheel dyno against the Steel Head Ford and the Steel Head Chevy. All of the engines were within 10 horsepower.
We released the Florida Spec engine in 2001 and the current price for 2012 is $17,800 with a 750 carburetor. (less alternator and power steering) It makes approximately 600+ HP and 500 FT LB torque on our dyno.
Feedback from every driver who runs this engine is “it is very driveable and very smooth.”
Other engine builders have expressed negativity about this engine and have eventually copied it, ran it and have taken credit for the idea which was originally done by us in 2000.
Straight from Progressive’s website.
Here is another version of the “sealed motor” from McGunegill
The only one not touched on, would be the SSPE engine. Which has comparable numbers as far as power and price to the Progressive Spec and the McGunegill.
